So You Want To Buy A Gun

I read this article some time ago and bookmarked it. I went to read it again recently and the bookmark gave me an error. So I ued the wayback machine and pulled the page. Maybe someone will find it interesting…So You Want To Buy A Gun: Philosophy Editorial Opinion (Published)
Published: 18 Oct 1999 Author: Lurker
Posted on 10/18/1999 00:15:13 PDT by Lurker

So You Want To Buy A Gun

Oct. 1999
Lurker

Just Another Opinion

So You Want To Buy A Gun

OK, you have thought about it a lot. You have heard all the arguments on both sides, and you have decided for whatever reason to arm yourself.

This is good.

The second question you have to answer is why do you want a gun.

If you want a gun to put meat on the table, that is one thing. But, if you are buying a weapon with which you hope to be able to defend your life, your freedom, and the lives of those you love that is entirely a different matter.

I will address the self defense aspects of firearms purchases in this writing.

First Choices

So, here we are at the gun store, looking at all those beautiful handguns in the long glass cases, and the racks of absolutely stunning rifles along the wall. The smell of new guns is almost intoxicating. The pistols gleam under the glass, and the wood and synthetic stocks of the rifles beckon you like sirens.

Forget them for now.

If you want just one firearm with which you will be able to both defend your home, your life, and as an added bonus be able to put meat on the table with, you want a shotgun.The shotgun was invented around 1600 or so, and it has been killing both man and beast in amazing numbers since then. Modern shotguns are well built, inexpensive, phenominally reliable, and have an absolutely astounding variety of ammunition avaible for use in them.

There are shotgun rounds which can literally clear a street of opposition in 3 or 4 shots, others which can kill a man or deer at ranges of 100 yards. There are shotgun shells which can kill any variety of game bird from snipe to goose. Smoke and teargas rounds can be had for your shotgun. There are even shotgun shells which can turn your trusty hogleg into a flame thrower if need be.

And the shotgun has the true beauty of a home defense weapon. It’s cheap. You can buy a completely reliable American made shotgun for less than 400.00 dollars. Both Mossberg and Remington make perfectly useful shotguns in this price range. Either one will serve a person very well.

Now shotguns, as good as they are, have their limits.

They are best employed at ranges from point blank to about 100 yards depending on the ammunition you have. And while you can kill large game or opponents at fairly long ranges with a shotgun, realistically for anything over 100 yards you need a rifle.

Also, if you are buying guns for self defense purposes, you shouldn’t count on your shotgun at anything beyond 50 yards or so. At ranges from 50 yards to 100 yards, you are going to need a pistol.

Just because this is my article, I am going to cover pistols first.

Your Second Choice

Handguns. Ah, handguns. I don’t think any aspect of self defense firearms ownership has had more words written or spoken than this one. A lot of what has been written and said is right, and an awful lot more is wrong.

There are two basic types of handguns. Revolvers, and semi-automatics. There are literally dozens of manufacturers, and thousands of models to chose from. Don’t let any of that scare you. If this is to be your first handgun, and you want it for self defense purposes, you want a revolver.

OK, I will give the semi-auto fans a moment to calm down, and I will proceed.

Everyone better? Good. Now, I personally love semi-auto pistols. In fact I own and carry one. It’s a beautiful stainless steel Colt Commander. I will also say that it is a lousy first choice for a handgun, and I am writing to the first time handgun buyer here, so give me a break.

So for the first time self defense buyer, here we go. You want a revolver. Preferably one chambered in the really scary sounding .357 Magnum cartridge. Some reputable manufacturers include Smith & Wesson, Colt, Sturm Ruger, Taurus, Rossi, and Dan Wesson. Handguns from these manufacturers chambered in the .357 magnum cartridge are available for purchase anywhere from 300.00 to 600.00 dollars. The beauty of a pistol chambered for .357 magnum is that you can also shoot the less powerful but still very effective .38 Special cartridge from the same gun.

Don’t worry, the .38 Special cartridge is effective against all kinds of critters, both two and four legged. Police departments the world around have carried this venerable cartridge for almost one hundred years. It has the added benefit of being very widely available, and inexpensive so you will be able to practice with it more than other more expensive rounds.

Don’t get hung up on someone trying to sell you a particular manufacturers gun. Find one that feels good and natural in your hand. For some, it’s a Smith & Wesson Model 19. For others the Ruger SP-101 is better. Don’t sneer at the Taurus because it’s made in Brazil. It’s a well made gun as is the Rossi. Just look around and find the best deal. Put the money you save over the 500.00 semi-auto into ammunition and more importantly range time.

Rifles. Actually, Two Rifles.

Here, I am going to veer off from the strictly self defense aspects of my article.

There are literally thousands of rifles on the market directed at the self defense buyer. Some are military in style, others are mated to a shotgun barrel and sold as “survival” weapons. I am going to beg the readers indulgence here and ask you to trust me.

You are going to need to buy two rifles, but I promise you can get both of the ones I think you need for less that a months pay for most people, and you won’t raise any eyebrows with your(my) selections.

The first one you want to buy is a .22 Caliber rifle. Yes, a .22 caliber.

Most kids in America have fired a .22 at one time or another. At one time it was an American boys rite of passage to have someone put his first .22 into his hands. Those days are gone, but the .22 lives on, thank God.

A good quality brand spanking new .22 caliber semi-auto rifle will run you about 300.00. Ruger makes a really good one. So does Browning. Another good manufacturer is Marlin. The .22 caliber round is accurate and effective at ranges to 200 yards against small game. Believe it or not, the largest bear ever killed in North America was shot by a 65 year old Native American woman with a bolt action .22 caliber rifle. The bear weighed over 300 pounds, the woman less than 150. The bear became a rug, the old Indian woman got famous. Go figure.

But, once again, the true beauty of the .22 is that it’s cheap! A good new one will run around 300.00 and ammunition is so inexpensive that you won’t believe it. A box of 50 rounds of ammunition is less than a dollar, and you can put 500 rounds in the pocket of your jacket. One can literally shoot a .22 all day for under 15.00 dollars. Now that’s a cost effective weapon in my opinion.

The Other Rifle

Just in case I haven’t really ticked anyone off yet, I am going to recommend a large caliber rifle for you, my gentle reader.

If you thought that buying a handgun or shotgun was a dizzying experience, then prepare yourself. Pick a nice day, have a hot cup of tea, and brace yourself for your final trip to the gun store. You are about to buy a rifle for self defense.

Nothing in your life has prepared you for this experience.

When you tell the proprietor of your local gun store why you are there, his eyes will gleam. He will smack his lips and rub his hands together. He will tell you that he has just the thing for you. He will pull some amazing pieces of firearms technology from his rack. There will be one of 3 or 4 models. It will be an AR-15 of one type or another, or it will be an FN/FAL of one type or another, heck it may be an AK-47 of one type or another. If you frequent the finer type of gun dealer, it may be an M1A1 by Springfield Armory.

You should ask your esteemed gun dealer to put all of them back on the rack as any one of these fine firearms costs well over 1000.00 in todays market.

Remember, you are here to buy something that can save your life. That means you have to be able to become competent in the use of that weapon and that means practice. Practice costs both time and money. The more you have to spend on practice time and ammunition, the more likely you are to survive actually having to use your weapon.

Have your firearms dealer show you bolt action rifles chambered in .308 caliber at the minimum.

That most popular and readily available calibers .308, 30-06, or 300 Winchester Magnum. There are other calibers available as well, and I would be remiss if I didn’t tell you dear reader that .270 is a fine cartridge as well. I must also share my prejudice for larger and heavier bullets. To my mind, .308 is the smallest caliber I think you should consider.

In these calibers, Remington, Browing, Winchester, Ruger, Savage, and Weatherby all make very fine rifles. In terms of cost, Remington and Savage are perhaps ones best buy. One should be able to locate and purchase a rifle in one of the above calibers on the 400.00 to 700.00 dollar range depending on the make and model you chose. Remington and Savange being the least expensive and Weatherby being the most expensive.

Putting a telescopic sight on any of the above firearms gives the user a weapon which can stop any assailant at ranges approaching 500 yards providing one has practiced sufficiently. There are documented cases of individuals killing man sized targets at ranges approaching 700 yards with this type of weapon. Telescopic sights add cost, but budget at least what you plan to spend on the rifle itself for a quality one.

Summing Up

OK, I know I was long winded here, but I have had some requests on the subject and wanted to share what I consider to be common sense advice on the subject.

Any individual should be able to equip themselves with this type of weaponry for under 1500.00 dollars and not attract a whole lot of attention while doing so. With the money one can save using this list as a guide, a motivated person should be able to become quite competent with all of the firearms listed here for less than 3000.00.

I know that sounds like a lot of money, but you aren’t going to do it all at once.

Just follow these steps, and before you know it, you will be ready and able to defend yourself against all the evil types in the world as well as provide for your family should things ever deteriorate that badly.

Regards,

For what it’s worth.

1 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:15:13 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Fine overview Lurker, tad pricey don’t you think ?
BUMP to the top.

2 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:28:12 PDT by jokar (tad pricey)
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To: jokar

Someone put up a post here of firearms for 5000.00 US.

I think it can be done for less than that. A goood shotgun for 350.00

A good revolver for 400.00

A good .22 for 350.00

And a good rifle and scope for 900.00 or so.

That equips one for about 2,000.00. It seems pricey, but I think it could look real cheap if one didn’t have these things and need them.

Throw in a grand or so for ammo, and to my mind it’s a pretty cheap insurance policy if you get my meaning.

Regards,

3 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:37:58 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Personally, I don’t see what the big hang-up is on getting a revolver if it is your first gun. I purchased my first gun just over a year ago – a Sig P229 .40 caliber. Just a month or so previous to that I had received *one* lesson and went the the range *one* additional time to try out a different gun. During my first lesson I shot a Sig 9mm and during the second I shot a Glock 9mm.

I will grant you that a revolver is more reliable in that if you have a misfire that another pull of the trigger will result in the next round being fired. On a semi-auto you would have to clear the dead round by racking the slide.

But a semi-auto handgun is not difficult to understand or to use. My wife also is proficient using her Glock 9mm sub-compact. We are both new to handguns and she was scared of them a year ago. Things have changed quite a bit as we both now have concealed carry licenses.

Personally, I like the ability to carry 12+1 rounds in my Sig (yes, I bought high-cap mags) and be able to carry around another couple of 12 rounds magazines just for good measure. With a revolver you are stuck with 6 rounds (occasionally 7) and speed-loaders as your best option for reloading.

I just wanted to give a different perspective and let everyone out there know that there is no rule – written or unwritten – that your first handgun must be a revolver! I don’t think that you necessarily implied this, but I think that people new to guns may be scared off a bit from semi-autos.

As a matter of fact, I have yet to shoot a revolver – however, I would like to get one in the near future and probably will… But it is just not that high up on “the list” right now.

Finally, I would like to re-emphasize that the most important factor is to PRACTICE with your gun(s) so that you know how to use them effectively. I don’t think that learning to use a semi-auto handgun is much more difficult than learning to use a revolver – the most important lessons are the same (Treat all guns as if they were loaded, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy, etc., etc.). The important thing though is to practice as much as economically and logistically possible!

P.S. Help friends become educated about guns! I am going to a gun range this week with a friend who just purchased his first handgun. He was set on a 9mm Beretta until I took him to a local gun show. After that he decided on the .40 Sub-Compact Glock. Should be fun!

4 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:42:33 PDT by TS2000 (TruthSeeker2000@Yahoo.com)
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To: Lurker

Well put!

I took the advice of an earlier thread to start buying ‘innocent weapons’.

The Mossberg 500 Persuader, 12 ga is a fine buy, short and well suited for home defense and short field work. The variety of loads is staggering.

The Ruger 10/22 ( basic model with BSA 4×32 scope) cost me $160. A plinking rifle with reasonable accuracy. The advantage is that it got me back to shooting more often. Best of all is that heavier more accurate barrels and trigger/hammer tune-ups are available without the federal yellow sheets. Thus transforming a plain vanilla plinker into a respectable target/field gun for less than the higher priced Ruger versions.

Still shopping for a wheel gun and serious long rifle. The Marlin lever action .45-70 guide gun sounds good to me because of the hefty cartridge and it also does not look ‘evil’, just a little cowboy rifle. :>)

For first time buyers don’t forget to budget cleaning kits, rods, brushes, etc. Learn to use them correctly and get to know your weapon intimately. It will prolong the life and efficiency as well as teaching you its limitations.

Find a range nearby and practice, practice, practice.

And don’t hesitate to ask experienced shooters for advice, they are more than happy to help.

5 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:44:55 PDT by Covenantor
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To: TS2000

The reason I emphasized revolvers over semi autos was largely the cost factor.

Hey, I love semis too. I pointed out that I own a Colt .45. I just think that for the first time handgun buyer the cost differential is better spent on the revolver and practice ammo.

200.00 dollars buys a lot of ammo after all.

Better a 350.00 dollar revolver and 1000 rounds of practice ammo than a 500.00 dollar semi auto and 100 rounds of practice.

Regards,

6 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:50:51 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

THANKS A LOT. IT IS GREAT. I JUST WENT TO MY FIRST GUN SHOW, ABOUT A FEW HRS AGON, IN BAY AREA. NEVER SEEN A GUN BEFORE. WENT ALONE. TOTAL GREENHORN. TODAY WAS THE FIRST DAY I EVEN MET MR.REMINGTON , MR.COLT AND THEIR GROUP OF FRIENDS PERSONALLY. WANTED SOME ADVISE ON THIS, I MEAN FROM SCRATCH. HERE IT IS, A GREAT ARTICLE WRITTEN FOR BEGINEERS LIKE ME. WILL FOLLOW YOUR ASTUTE ADVISE. GOING FOR THE GUN SHOW NEXT WEEKEND IN SAN JOSE. GREAT ARTICLE. ANYWAY WILL LOOK FOR COMMENTS AND VARIED OPINIONS THAT ARE SURELY GOING TO FOLLOW IN THIS THREAD AND GOING TO LOOK OUT FOR EVERY BIT OF INFO AND ADVISE THAT I CAN GET OUT OF THIS THREAD. THANKS ONCE AGAIN FOR ALL THE INFO AND FOR STARTING SUCH A THREAD.

7 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:53:41 PDT by Cool Guy
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To: Lurker

Excellent summary and shopping list.

If I was just starting my shopping, I might stick with those exact calibres and in that order. But it is so darn hard to let go of hardware just to standardize, especially in the midst of several “national emergencies”.

8 Posted on 10/18/1999 00:58:27 PDT by meadsjn
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To: Cool Guy

I am very glad you found my advise useful.

You are exactly the type of person I was writing it for.

Regards,

9 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:00:40 PDT by Lurker
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To: Cool Guy

FORGOT TO MENTION ALSO SIGNED UP FOR NRA!!!! FEELS GREAT!!

10 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:00:48 PDT by Cool Guy
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To: meadsjn

Yea, I know what you mean.

So many toys, and so little time.

Regards,

11 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:01:58 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Thanks once again. I have book marked it and will go through it over and over again.

12 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:02:37 PDT by Cool Guy
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To: Lurker

To my mind, .308 is the smallest caliber I think you should consider.

When I was in the National Guard, a trip to the M-60 range was always a cheap way to load up on ammo for deer season. I never took any 7.62 myself(I’m a 30-06 guy), but a couple of buddies always made it a point to volunteer for that range detail. One told me he hit a 7-point buck with a tracer round the year before, which was amusing. Good article, and I agree with just about everything you wrote, but I still prefer a semi-auto to a revolver.

13 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:14:00 PDT by ABG(anybody but Gore)
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To: Lurker

To my mind, .308 is the smallest caliber I think you should consider.

14 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:14:47 PDT by ABG(anybody but Gore)
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

oops, I hit the send button twice. Sorry.

15 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:17:02 PDT by ABG(anybody but Gore)
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

I remember that thing(M60), a real piece of crap if you ask me.

Regards,

16 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:17:49 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Many good points, but may I add the shotgun is the minimum because of the ammo availability. Even if we get down to a ban on whatever shotgun ammo will be the most available because its the most PC of them all. Hell even fatass Clintoon duck hunts and I sure as hell would hate to get hit with #2 or even #6 at close range. My.02.

17 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:22:18 PDT by wile
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

It happens.

18 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:22:46 PDT by Lurker
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To: wile

That’s why I put the shotgun there first.

There is nothing like ole Mr. 12 Guage….

Regards,

19 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:27:18 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

I hated the 60, but being left handed, I have an automatic dislike for any weapon that I’m required to fire right handed. I loved the M-203, once I figured out how to fire it southpaw, but I never cared for the 60. Besides, who wants to lug that thing around? It’s great in a static defense, but nobody wanted to carry it during an offensive drill. I was lucky enough to remain a grenadier for all 6 years I served, but that didn’t save me from making a couple of qualifying trips to the 60 range.

The poor slobs who were slotted, or were dumb enough to volunteer, for the job regretted it, but did go out and buy .308 rifles for deer hunting.

20 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:36:39 PDT by ABG(anybody but Gore)
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

Thanks for mocking us poor 0313’s…

Regards,

21 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:41:40 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

“And the shotgun has the true beauty of a home defense weapon. It’s cheap.”

What you want is a riot model or deer model – one with an 18″ or 20″ (riot) or 24″ (deer) model.

Anything longer is just too unwieldy indoors. Preferably, stick with a riot model by Mossberg or Remington – the Mossberg 500 or 590, or the Remington 870; both are pumps.

Unless you are really into guns, avoid semiauto shotguns. There are good reasons police forces don’t issue them widely.

GUN RIGHTS resource library – read about the rich married antigun activist’s new “love child!”

22 Posted on 10/18/1999 01:45:00 PDT by glc1173@aol.com
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To: Lurker

Good recommendations overall. I think you’ve designed an adequate self-defense battery. Of course, I would pick a somwhat different battery… Each of us has his own opinion, as expected.

Yes, a shotgun is the first and primary gun for self-defense. I believe this is for two reaons — it can be used with minimum/no training or practice and it is easy to use under stress. Because it can be used with minimal training does not mean it should be used with minimal training. So beware…

First, lets dispell a common myth about shotguns. At short ranges, a shotgun is not a heat-seeking missile. Buck shot will not find the target on its own. A shotgun must be aimed at its target. True, the slight spread of shot does increase the probability of hitting a vital organ which will stop an assailant. And a square hit will put so many .32 caliber balls (i.e. – 00 buckshot) into a bad guy that he will stop attacking much faster than if he got hit with one handgun bullet — any handgun bullet, even from a .357 Magnum. Why? Because shotgun wounds are sickeningly nasty fatal messy. Shotguns kill quickly at short range. Ask any doctor who works in an emergency ward. Gunshot wounds are the worst damage they see and shotgun wounds are the worst of the worst.

But too many people are under the impression that you just point a shotgun “kinda sorta” toward a bad guy and the pellets will somehow find him and knock him down. Certainly not at inside-the-house distances. Not under 25-yards and probably not under 50-yards, I don’t believe. That is a myth. Maybe with an illegally sawed-off shotgun, but not with your Weatherby duck gun.

I am told that the best self-defense feature in a shotgun is the distinctive sound it makes when loading a round with a pump-action shotgun. Apparently, this sound almost always motivates an intruder to get out of your house immediately, if not sooner!

That said, shotguns have disadvantages when compared with handguns. They are longer. If you are surprised inside your house, a shotgun can be taken from your hands much more easily than a small handgun. Because a shotgun is relatively long it is much easier for a bad guy to grab the muzzle and point it in a harmless direction, than he could do with a handgun in your grip. He has to get closer to you to disarm you or deflect the barrel of a handgun.

I agree that a shotgun is the best in-the-house defense weapon for someone who is not willing to train with a handgun. But if you are willing to put the time into learning to shoot a handgun, I think it is better than a shotgun inside the house. My understanding is that law enforcement officers generally are trained to clear a house of suspects using handguns, not shotguns.

It is too easy to have a shotgun wrestled away from you. Also, it is not easy to spin around in a narrow hallway when you are holding a relatively long weapon like a shotgun. A handgun handles much more quicly around the house than a shotgun does. It is easier to move with a handgun and easier to bring the handgun into play when it is needed.

Outside the house at short range, I agree that a shotgun is the best self-defense weapon, especially if you have practiced shooting with it. A shotgun is basically a hand-held cannon that shoots “grapeshot.” I think a shotgun would be a superior deterrent to a handgun or a rifle, for anyone 25 yards away or more. Your shotgun would give them a very complelling reason to peacefully go away and bother someone weaker.

I agree that one of the myriad of excellent .357 revolvers is the best first handgun for beginners. Simple, reliable, accurate, affordable, beginners can shoot the soft-recoiling .38 Special rounds with the option to use powerful .357 Magnum rounds for the many who can mentally learn to accept the heavy recoil.

Could a beginner begin with a good quality auto-pistol? Sure, why not? If the beginner is willing to get professional instructions and to practice shooting every couple of weeks, then fine. There would be no problem with a beginner learning to shoot with an auto-pistol. But too many people buy a handgun for self-defense and then never shoot it, not even once. They just leave it in the nightstand and think they will somehow be magically proficient when called on to use it.

Good heavens! Who would buy a V-8 powered sports car with a manual transmission and then leave it in the garage until he needed to go somewhere, without having learned how to drive it? That would be insane and unsafe. Well, buying a gun — any gun — and then not practicing how to use it, is equally crazy. But some people, sadly, won’t learn that lesson until they fail to protect their own personal safety with that gun they have no clue how to use.

The gun-owners mantra for newbies goes like this, and you’ll see it often: “Practice! Practice! Practice!” And when you’ve finished practicing, then practice somemore. If ammunition and range time were free, this wouldn’t be such an issue. But we are all so busy nowadays and ammunition and range time cost money that competes with our other discretionary entertainmen dollars, and for some of us, our necessities. And so shooting practice goes by the wayside.

Ladies, a word of caution: A revolver is just a “point and shoot” device. Very simple. Any revolver you can get your hands around and isn’t too heavy for you to hold up, you can shoot.

Automatics have a fatal flaw for many ladies. To load the first cartridge you must pull the slide all the way back, then let it go, which chambers the first round. I’ve heard of women who were talked into buying an automatic only to find out that they didn’t have the natural strength to “rack the slide” and no-one taught them a technique to be able to do so. Only the most frail women cannot be taught to wrack an auto’s slide or to develop the strenght to do it. But it takes a bit of practice. Buying a revolver means you don’t even have to consider this potential problem.

Autoloaders have other problems for beginners and/or those who refuse to spend the additional time required. Autoloaders have to be disassembled to be cleaned. They have more moving parts that can break or fail. The may not feed the ammunition you have purchased. Sometimes people will take a friend’s advice and buy some fancy self-defense ammunition with a very aggressive hollow-point design, one that is very blunt and the auto-loader won’t be able to feed the flat-nosed bullet. The worst possible time to learn that this ammunition will jam in your particular gun is at the moment when you are trying to use your gun to protect you against a big mean angry attacker.

In a revolver, the cartridges are already lined up with the barrel and no bullets are fed from a magazine, so every revolver can shoot every type of bullet design from the flat-nosed “wadcutter” to the hollow-point bullet lovingly refered to as the “flying ashtray” because it is so flat and has a deep hollow hole in it.

About rifles, Lurker, I don’t understand your inclusion of a .22 cal rifle in a basic self-defense battery. As an option, sure. There are some specialized situations where it would be nice. But what is the real purpose? To get small game without destroying all the meat the way a high-powered rifle would do? To kill snakes, rodents and other pests? But couldn’t the shotgun do this job just as easily. Sure, that rabbit may have 2 pellets of #4 shot in it, instead of one .22 cal bullet, but I don’t think it will spoil that much more meat. And for bigger prey or rodents, the main rifle will do anything the .22 will do. I’m not disagreeing so much as you have confused me as to the need for a .22 in a basic self-defense battery.

Finally, I would only recommend one rifle and that would be a modern military rifle such as an AR-15 or an AK-47. I personally prefer the AK because it is simpler than the AR and will continue operating reliably even if it has not been cleaned in a long time, even if it gets dirty or muddy and even in extreme cold weather (for those in North Dakota, Vermont and the like). But many swear by the AR-15 and thats an adequate alternative, prefered by many.

Why do you recommend a high-powered rifle chambered for a round with at least the energy of a .308 cartridge?

If by self-defense you mean hunting, then by all means a good bolt-action hunting rifle is a must. The AK rifle is not accurate enough for hunting and the 7.62×39 cartridge is under-powered for reliable hunting of deer-sized game. The AR-15 is deadly accurate to several hundred yards, but again, the .223 round may not incapacitate game quickly enough to find it. It could go a long ways before dying. Also, many .223 loads are unstable and merely hitting a leaf or some tall grass on the way toward the target can deflect the bullet and ruin the shot.

If hunting is what you mean by saving your life, then yes you need a good bolt-action .270, 30-06 or 7mm.

But if you mean anti-personnel defense (against people) then I disagree. The AR or AK type rifles have large capacity magazines and are very reliable. Especially the AK-rifles. The AK can operate in all manner of adverse weather conditions that might cause failures in a finely-tuned hunting rifle. Hunting rifles hold 5-rounds and must be reloaded. An AK rifle can hold 20- 30- 40- or 75-rounds before reloading is needed. Why anyone would need 75-rounds I can’t say. But the option is there. And if I had been in the L.A. riots with vandals trying to loot my store, I would much rather have an AK rifle with two 30-round magazines fastened together, than to have merely 5 rounds in the hunting rifle or to have a Winchester style lever-action gun. Outside of the riot scenario, the 5-rounds in the hunting rifle are probably adequate for defending yourself against a single attacker. And the odds of being assaulted by a gang of attackers seems slim to me under normal circumstances. The need for a high-capacity weapon would only be mandatory in a situation such as TEOTWAWKI or some such event such as the worst-case-scenario for Y2K with total chaos and lawlessness.

And why would you need a rifle accurate to 500-yards if not to hunt with? Certainly not for self-defense. That is sniper distance, for attacking work. Personally, I don’t consider someone a quarter of a mile away from me to be an assailant. He is a concern to observe and monitor. But unless he is shooting at me from 500 yards away, he is not an assailant. And if he is shooting at me from 500 yards away, well all I can say is “thanks for the warning!” I’d much rather have him doing that than to lay low and ambush me from 50 yards or less. OR to put a bomg in my car.

Sniper-capable range, accuracy and power just don’t seem necessary in my view of a self-defense rifle. For self-defense in an uncertain scenario like Y2K where anything is possible and you may not be able to find any gun cleaner or oil, I would much rather have a durable, reliable, high-capacity firearm that will feed any type of ammunition you put in it. An AK-style rifle will work every time I need it, whether maintained or not, while a high-powered rifle may begin to jam without regular cleaning, and barrel fouling could cause the weapon to fail catastrophically and blow up.

The AK may not be competition-trophy accurate, like a hunting rifle or a Springfield M1-A match rifle, but it is easy to hit a stationary man-sized target and with 30-minimum chances to hit it, well… I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of one. I truly believe that a combat-style rifle that is accurate within tactical ranges of 100-yards maximum is much more practical than a high-powered hunting rifle or sniper-rifle with 500-yard capability. Here in the suburbs, I sure can’t even see 200 yards in any direction from my home, let alone 500.

Futhermore, the AK rifle is designed for uneducated freedom fighters with little or no weapons training conducted in terrible or extreme climates and living conditions: jungles, deserts, tundra. The AK design simply works. Also, I continue to see ads for AK-style rifles for $350 to $400. Not expensive at all. And surplus Russian ammunition goes for some .11 cents per shot mail order. (Stock up now!) How much is .308 ammunition? .50 cents per shot? .75 cents?

I recently bought some old British surplus .308 ammunition at a gun show for .35 cents a shot. That’s a very good price but it is not the best ammunition, so… My point is that at .11 cents a shot, someone could afford to shoot four or five times as many practice rounds with the AK rifle than with the .308, .30-06 or other high-powered rifle ammunition for the same money.

You are definitely on the right track with your post and it is excellent food for thought. All of my long-winded comments taken together do not contradict your post so much as merely express my personal opinion, a personal fine-tuning. So here is the self-defense battery I would recommend for a beginner:

One shotgun: Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 (around $300 at K-mart) with maximum 18-inch barrel.

One revolver: any good quality .357 Magnum. I like my 4-inch S&W 586 and shoot primarily 38 Special +P from it. But there are tons of good ones out there and almost no bad ones, so you really can’t go wrong. And it is almost difficult to spend $400 on one, while an autoloader can easily run to $1000 or more.

One tactical rifle: Bulgarian made AKM style rifle. The SLR-95 is good and can still be found for under $700, though they are no longer imported. The SLR99 is currently imported and can be had mail-order for as little as $389.

Of course, this battery is near useless and may in fact harm your personal safety if you don’t “Practice! Practice!

Practice!” Finally, be safe. A gun is always loaded so treat it that way. “Unloaded” guns are more dangerous than loaded ones. Don’t put your finger on the trigger until you really want to shoot something. This is how “unloaded” guns kill people. Even “unloaded” guns can’t kill if you keep your finger out of the trigger guard. Don’t ever point a gun at anything you don’t intend to destroy.

Be safe and keep your guns locked up when not in use. You should never leave a loaded fire-arm out and unattended. If you have children you absolutely have to find a fail-safe way to store your weapons making it impossible for children to accidentally or intentionally get to them. A single person has the luxury of leaving a loaded shot-gun under the bed or a loaded hand-gun in the nightstand.

If you don’t live alone, you don’t have that luxury. You may have to buy one of those quick access storage boxes for the handgun or put a trigger lock on the shotgun. Of course, an intruder won’t wait for you to unlock the shotgun before he attacks you. I haven’t solved that one yet… But keep your guns inaccessable from others, even thieves. If you own guns, you really should own a gun safe to protect your investment in them and to mitigate your liability.

Good topic, Lurker. Always something to think about. You want to be prepared, not surprised.

23 Posted on 10/18/1999 02:40:26 PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Lurker

You have put a lot of interesting into into this, but have also introduced some info that is dubious. To whit:

I question your choice of a shotgun as the primary home defense weapon. The idea that a shotgun is easier to hit with at close range is an oversimplification. Some may think that a shotgun “scatters” at close range. This is not true; therefore the weapon must still be aimed fairly accurately and can do a lot of collateral damage. A shotgun also has limitations in being more unwieldy than a pistol and less easily maintained “easy to reach”. The choice of a pump action with slug length barrel of around 20″ is pretty ideal. Lengths of under 18″ puts one in the illegal weapon category.

I also truly question your statement that for “ranges beyond 50 yards one needs a PISTOL, not a shotgun”. I certainly agree about the usefullness of the shotgun beyond 50 yard, but how many folks do you know are really proficient with a pistol beyond 50 yards? How many pistols are truly effective beyond 50 yards unless in the hands of an expert?

A good pistol, either semi-auto or revolver, would be a good choice for close quarters. Once again, the user must be proficient (not knowing to rack the slide on a semi-auto is inexcusable and that person should not have the weapon if that uninformed and untrained). The user should use the most ballistically effective caliber he/she is able to shoot accurately. I would personally not select anything smaller than 9mm or 38+P/.357. Bullet selection is very important as well since there is tremendous variation in effectiveness as a “stopper” between various bullet types within the same caliber. As someone else mentioned, care must be used to insure that the bullet design functions properly in a semi-auto.

In the “large rifle” category for the purposes of “self-defense”, virtually any caliber suitable for deer and larger should be perfectly adequate to include: .243, 6mm, .25, .270, 7mm, .280, etc. Most of these can be obtained in bolt, lever, semi-auto, and pump actions, some with removable magazines…even extended capacity magazines. Both the AK and AR are relatively low powered and may face the additional handicap of being declared illegal as has happened in CA.

I really question the information that you have listed about the .22 rifle. A .22 is not “effective and accurate to 200 yards” on small game because of trajectory and energy levels. For “varmint” and small game purposes, for example, a .223 is only considered effective to about 250 yards.

Don’t know what you have been reading about bears, but a 300 pounder is a baby in some areas of the West, Alaska and Canada. I have heard of much larger bears being killed by .22s, but to do so requires either extraordinary skill or extraordinary luck, or maybe both! Don’t know what the woman’s weight (150 lbs) had to do with it unless she had to wrestle with it after shooting. All of this is not to say that a .22 couldn’t be useful, especially for small game at more moderate ranges if one were in the survival mode.

Also noted with interest the comment by another writer about using 7.62mm (.308) ball and tracer ammo on deer. This is certainly a poor choice if there ever was one!

24 Posted on 10/18/1999 04:21:41 PDT by Gnarly
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To: Lurker

Thank you for the informative post!

I too am a greenhorn in the area of weaponry. Thanks to the liberal idealogy of ‘gun control’, I’ve just purchased my first weapon of choice, a S&W .357 686 w/ a 4″ barrel. Initially I was intent in getting a Glock 9mm, but after trying one at the range, I decided a ‘wheel gun’ would be a reasonable choice.

My second weapon will probably be a 9mm Browning or Sig 1911 type handgun. People tell me Glocks are great, except that I like the hammer type semi-automatic. Any suggestions, flames included, will be appreciated!

Thanks again, Lurker!

25 Posted on 10/18/1999 04:36:44 PDT by mcmuffin
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To: Lurker

At one time it was an American boys rite of passage to have someone put his first .22 into his hands.

During our family vacation this summer I took my boys to the family farm in Tennessee and we got out the 22 rifle for some target practice. I must say that they enjoyed shooting that rifle much more than all the Disney “eye-candy” they’ve experienced over the years. It literally *MADE* their vacation.

It was particularly gratifying for me, because I took them to the same old levy where I first shot my own 22 (Remington ‘s “Nylon 66”) almost 30 years ago.

Great post!

26 Posted on 10/18/1999 04:43:41 PDT by The Duke
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To: ALL

Maybe this isn’t exactly on topic, but it’s about guns, and I didn’t want to waste a vanity post.

I happened to tune in to the beginning of “The Practice” on ABC last night. One of the female lawyers was considering getting a gun for protection, or she had one already, I’m not sure which.

Anyways, one of the other lawyers said “For every handgun used in self defense, 40 more are used to commit murder”

I’m pretty sure he said 40 not four or 14. This seems like a blatantly false statement to me. Anybody else see the show, and what are the actual statistics of guns used in self defense vs guns used to commit murder.

IMHO, this is another example of the subtle brainwashing and conditioning the media is using on an unsuspecting public.

27 Posted on 10/18/1999 04:47:35 PDT by ActionNewsBill
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To: Gnarly

“All of this is not to say that a .22 couldn’t be useful, especially for small game at more moderate ranges if one were in the survival mode.”

There are still a whole lot of survivors amongst the farmers in Pennsylvania then, judging on how frequently (and of course, discreetly) deer are taken by the humble .22.

My own choice for rifle is the Winchester Featherweight in 30.06 with the claw (pre ’64) style extractor. It’s not too expensive and it’s more accurate than my brother’s fancy, high falutin’, tuned, “accurized” rifles in any of their calibers.

In my neck of the woods, the 30-30 lever action is plenty good for any large animal you desire to eat, since you can’t see your prey beyond 50-100 yards anyway, owing to the hills, trees, rocks etc.

You guys out west are lucky. What’s the horizon look like? We don’t have one here, just trees.

28 Posted on 10/18/1999 05:01:50 PDT by JohnYankeeCmpsr
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To: Lurker

Oh, I love these “basic” firearm needs threads.

For those on a penny pinching budget, here are my thoughts.

Shotgun is a must but not the first piece I’d buy.

First piece would be a semi auto sks, even though they now cost 3 times what I paid for mine they are dependable rifles, and with glasser safety slugs, they too can be perfectly capable of home defense.

Secon piece, 9mm or .45 semi auto pistol. These caliber guns can be had inexpensively. A model I found to be dependable is the Hi-Point at the lower price range.

Third would be the shotgun, the shotgun is not an easy arm to fire or train youself to use. Because the “shot” leaves the barrel at such a low velocity (1100-1200 ft/sec) it requires a large load (1 and a quarter to 1 and a half oz) to be effective as an anti-personnel firearm. This heavy load causes recoil and most first timers find this very troubling. A shotgun that is a smaller qauge than 12 would be laughed at by most law enforcement personnel as inadequate.

A side bar here, one of the reasons pump shotguns are favored (after leathality and liability concerns) is the ablility to rack a round in the chamber with the pump action there by gaining the bar room brawlers attention.

The SKS can be had for around 300 dollars and is a very dependable and accurate rifle out to 150/200 yds.

Dependable sidearms go from 150.00 up to 500/600 dollars

Mossberg, Remington make great 12 gauge pump shotguns for the 250/300 dollar range.

Don’t forget trigger locks with all firearms

With the 200/300 dollars left from your thousand dollar budget buy lots of rounds of ammo and practice, practice, practice, practice.

And don’t forget to get qualified help in learning how to use these firearms safely and sanely. Freedom’s responsiblility demands that you use these firearms prudently and securely.

29 Posted on 10/18/1999 05:11:36 PDT by po’boy
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To: po’boy

My don’t we all love our guns! I am as bad, but I think a real novice might consider just getting a 12 ga. mossberg pump, even used may only be 100 bucks. Then make friends with someone who owns all the lther weapons and tell him, “If the time ever comes I’ll cover your flank!” As you and your friend practice, you may gain proficiency with some of his stuff, but at least be able to hit with 00 buck at 30 yds.

30 Posted on 10/18/1999 05:21:44 PDT by wastoute
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To: Lurker

Your ‘starter list’ is very well thought out, you done good. I prefer a hefty bullet for my wheelgun and have settled on .45LC. (Very effective at close ranges and more accurate than an ‘stock’ auto. Also, IF you have to use it in the house it won’t go thru a wall and ruin a neighbors day.) The new shooter should never buy a gun that cannot ‘do the job’ out of the box. Gunsmithing a pistol to make it the ‘shooter of your dreams’ proves you got the wrong gun to start with. We are talking about reliable self defense shooting irons. Would you like a race car as a vehicle for your wife to use shopping?

I have a 12 ga, side by side, with 18″ barrels, loaded with 00 that sits in a glass fronted gun case which guarantees my 5′ tall wife a safe, easy to handle remedy for anything evil trying to enter the house. (Pumps have one extra shot, but they are slower to reload. I think it is a fair trade.) Your list is flawless, and I only wrote this to add a philosophical note. When it comes to self defense: Simple is always better, Larger is always more effective and practise does make perfect. (Or as close as it gets to it.)

31 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:15:08 PDT by jaw jacker
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To: ABG(anybody but Gore)

My experience in Viet Nam with the 4th Infantry Div 67=68 was that no one in my platoon wanted to carry the M-60 until we’d been in a fire fight, then everyone wanted it. It was without a doubt the most effective weapon we had in the Highland jungles. I insisted that everyone in my platoon including me carry one belt of ammo for the M-60’s to insure that we were well defended.

If it were legal I’d probably have one set up in my livingroom right now. 🙂

32 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:17:09 PDT by Ace the Biker
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To: Lurker

Everything but the .22, and it’s in the closet.

33 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:19:51 PDT by CrowII
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To: ActionNewsBill

“IMHO, this is another example of the subtle brainwashing and conditioning the media is using on an unsuspecting public.”

IMHO, there is NOTHING subtle about it. Widespread and totally blatant lies.

34 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:32:14 PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Lurker

Also, if you are buying guns for self defense purposes, you shouldn’t count on your shotgun at anything beyond 50 yards or so. At ranges from 50 yards to 100 yards, you are going to need a pistol.

???
Personally, at 50 to 100 yards I’d prefer the shotgun with an appropriate load.
Generally, the pistol is for situations < 50 yards (preferably < 25) where it may be cumbersome to be carrying a shotgun.

35 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:34:10 PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Lurker

While many may not believe it, you can still get an AR-15 for about $525, provided you have a little skill with your hands. First get the lower receiver, typical cost $125 plus tax. Then go to Model 1 Sales for a complete kit for $375 (no FFL required) and assemble the parts. Add a few bucks for extra springs, firing pins, etc. Get a Marine Corp M-16 field manual and a few clips, some ammo from http://web.archive.org/web/20070623040846/http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/goa.htm and you are set! Not only that, if you use the /goa.htm link, a portion goes to the Gun Owners of America. How is that for killing two birds with one bullet?

36 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:34:19 PDT by dls442
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To: Lurker

Thanks for the info! I took a gun safety course as a kid, before being allowed to accompany my stepfather hunting. I’ve fired a .306(kicks like a cannon). Now I’m going to get a handgun (and carry permit). My husband has an antique Springfield rifle, but I’m going to use info from this thread to get another shotgun or rifle. I want to be armed and ready before this government gets out of hand.

37 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:43:42 PDT by village idiot
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To: Lurker

whoops……is it 30.06? obviously a novice….

38 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:51:39 PDT by village idiot
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To: TS2000

Here in South Africa we will have an extended new year due to expected Y2K. At that time of the year most people are drunk and it’s hot just like east L.A.a couple of years back, we’re not taking chances. Decided to buy a new gun after a friend successfully eliminated a perp with his .40 Glock 23. He’s shot other perps with Glock 17 and 19’s (it’s a low intensity war here)problem was the guys ran away (found them in hospital later)the guy he eliminated still managed to run about 200 yards with three rounds of S&W .40 hollow in him (all torso shots). We have access to the large capacity mags, no 10 shot limits like the US. A rifle in urban situations where hundreds of rioter could be running around causing mayhem doesn’t make sense maybe for sniping but that would not be cricket, shotguns do. Revolvers don’t shoot enough bullets between reloading.

39 Posted on 10/18/1999 06:53:22 PDT by chilli (novass@icon.co.za)
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To: Lurker

While I agree with your selection of a shotgun as a first firearm, I am still having problems with this range “thingy”. May I suggest that the following be considered for firearms #2 and #3 (pistol and rifle #1): plan to acquire a “combo” that utilizes the same ammo for both. Rimfire .22 cal. would be the least expensive, but a 9mm pistol together with a Marlin Camp 9 carbine is real nice!!!

40 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:00:03 PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: ActionNewsBill

For every handgun used in self defense, 40 more are used to commit murder.

Only one out of ten thousand guns will be used in a crime. The ratio of guns used in self defense to guns used to kill is on the order of 100 to one.

41 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:00:34 PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: Lurker

One of my well informed Army friends told me that the mean battle range of a pistol was 1.8 INCHES.

After watching pistol stooters for about 10 years it takes an exceptional shooter to hit anything with a pistol. They do make a lot of noise

I do agree with you about the shotgun. A 12 gauge is a man stopper. As my age creeps up, I think that a weapon’s weight is also an important parameter.

42 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:04:05 PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (twolfo19@idt.net)
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To: hopespringseternal

Only one out of ten thousand guns will be used in a crime. The ratio of guns used in self defense to guns used to kill is on the order of 100 to one. But how many people who watched that show are going to know they have been lied to? If it’s on TV it must be true, right? Plus it was a lawyer saying it and we all know they never lie.

43 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:17:59 PDT by ActionNewsBill
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To: Gnarly

Re: “long” range .22 rim fire accuracy

Growing up on .22LR target shooting, at 10 years of age I regularly shot house flies, Musca Domestica, at 100 yards when using 16X or 24X scope on a Remington 40X. Boogers were the best fly bate. Remember that I was a kid. Although under adult supervision, they didn’t catch on to my hunting creativity.

For reference, my best pre-teen match score was 397/400 36X/40X, but the plinking out to about 200 yards was my best marksmanship training, for mirage, windage, and drop. Thanks, Dad. Wormy tomatoes, old eggs, and Cambell’s soup cans were generally the targets. Easy hits with subsonic .22 rim fire Remington 40X or Anschutz 54 at 24X. Once practiced and with match ammo, rats and mice became a more productive prey, even at 200 yards.

This accuracy is not obtainable with your out-of-the-box Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 60 or 39A. It is a shame that youth target shooting is nonPC and deemed by the gun nazis as nearly child abuse, certainly contributing to delinquency of a minor. I bet Winchester #75, #52, Remington #37, #40X, and Anschutz #54 are near vague memories in gun stores. What a loss.

44 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:29:31 PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Lurker

Here are links to some of the major firearms manufacturer’s websites, and I’ve added a few comments of my own.
-=-=-=-

Beretta firearms

Beretta offers a variety of shotguns and semi-auto pistols. They have a good reputation for quality. Their series 92 pistol is a military standard, but usually considered too bulky for civilian concealed carry. They offer several more compact guns for that application. I’m not personally familiar with Beretta pricing, but have the impression it tends toward the higher end of the popular market.
=-=-=-=

Browning firearms

Browning offers shotguns of several different kinds, centerfire hunting rifles and .22 rifles, a .22 pistol, and the Browning Hi-Power pistol. Their products have a good reputation for quality. Pricing tends toward the higher end of the popular gun market, perhaps, although the Hi-Power is a bargain in a quality single-action semi-auto.
=-=-=-=

(A “centerfire” rifle is one that uses a centerfire cartridge. Doh. 🙂 A centerfire cartridge has a separate primer that’s placed in the middle of the base of the shell. Middle=center. The centerfire design is universally used for the higher-power cartridges for either rifles or handguns, and is also the design used for shotgun shells. A .22 cartridge, on the other hand, has its primer material inside the shell, placed around the rim at the base. A .22 is a “rimfire” cartridge. Primer material is used in cartridges because the powder is difficult to ignite on its own. Anyway, centerfire=high-power as a general rule; and rimfire=low-power, usually .22.)
=-=-=-=

Glock

The Glock website is perennially under construction, and all you’ll get is the name. A web search for Glock will turn up numerous sites that discuss the guns. Glock is known for its semi-auto pistols, and the Glock is the original “plastic” gun. The “plastic” is actually a very tough polymer material, used for the frame and grip. The barrel and slide of the gun are steel. Despite the “plastic” Glocks have shown a remarkable record of durability and dependability. Glocks are still controversial in some respects, but have become a dominant force in the handgun market, for both law enforcement and the public. Also, Glock has been highly responsive to the market in offering a variety of sizes and calibers of guns. Pricing is about average for quality handguns these days, I guess.
=-=-=-=

Ithaca

Ithaca makes pump shotguns. I’m not personally familiar with them, but as far as I know they’re well-regarded. I’d characterize the pricing as “competitive/aggressive,” meaning in the mid-range or lower.
=-=-=-=

Marlin firearms

Marlin offers centerfire rifles in different styles, and a very wide variety of .22 rifles. Their model 60 is said to be the most popular .22 in the world. The model 60 is inexpensive and decent quality, a respectable choice for a first-time buyer, and it’s available in one style or another at virtually every store that sells guns. Marlin makes bolt-action shotguns for hunting, but they are probably not of interest for general-purpose use. Marlin also makes carbines that use pistol ammunition, and those have become popular as plinkers and utility guns.
=-=-=-=

(“Plinking” means casual target shooting, such as shooting at tin cans. Also, a “carbine” is a rifle that’s shorter and lighter than a full-size rifle, and uses less powerful ammo than a full-size rifle. “Carbine” is not strictly defined, however, and if there’s doubt about whether a gun is a rifle or carbine, the best thing to do is simply to look at what the manufacturer calls it. Also, a “utility” gun is an all-purpose gun that could be used for hunting, self-defense, pest control on a farm, informal target practice, or any use where it offers enough accuracy and power.)
=-=-=-=

Mossberg

Mossberg is known for shotguns, especially pump-action guns. They’re popular with law enforcement and buyers in general. Pricing is relatively low and quality is good; they’re considered a good value. Also, replacement barrels for Mossberg are generally less expensive than for other brands.
=-=-=-=

(Replacement barrels are readily available for all the popular brands of semi-auto or pump action shotguns. You can have one shotgun with three, or more, barrels for different uses. An example would be, a short barrel for home defense, a longer barrel for bird hunting, and a slug barrel for deer hunting. Switching barrels is usually easy to do and only takes a minute. Note that this only applies to single-barrel guns; double-barrel shotguns are a different story. The prices of various replacement barrels of different brands will run from just over $100 up to about $300 or so.)
=-=-=-=

Remington

Remington offers shotguns, various .22 rifles, and centerfire rifles. Their .22s are popular, although not so much as Marlin or Ruger. Their bolt-action centerfire rifles are popular and well-regarded for accuracy. Their semi-auto and pump shotguns are extremely popular. Their pricing seems generally “competitive,” mid-range.
=-=-=-=

Ruger

Ruger makes revolvers, rifles, pistols and sporting shotguns. Their overall pricing is “competitive,” I’d judge. Their revolvers are solidly built, and usually have good accuracy. Their semi-auto pistols are a little heavy and bulky compared to some others, but are good quality and priced attractively. Their .22 rifle model 10/22 is popular and available in a wide variety of styles. The Ruger Mini-14 is often criticized for poor accuracy, but is still a highly popular utility rifle; it uses the same ammo as the military M-16 and the AR-15 type rifles, and is less expensive than an AR-15.
=-=-=-=

SIG

SIG is a Swiss-German company with some manufacturing in the U.S. It’s best known among the public for its semi-auto pistols. Quality is high, and price is toward the high end.
=-=-=-=

Smith & Wesson

Smith & Wesson offers revolvers and semi-auto pistols, both .22 and centerfire in a range of calibers. Their revolvers are highly regarded, acceptance of their pistols has been somewhat spotty, although their compact pistols have developed a loyal following for concealed carry.
=-=-=-=

Taurus

Taurus is a Brazil-based company that offers a wide variety of revolvers and pistols. Their pricing has been “aggressive” i.e. toward the low end, but they are not in the class of “cheap” guns. Their quality gets knocked occasionally, but they generally seem to be decent values. They aren’t all imports, Taurus has a factory in Miami FL.
=-=-=-=

That’s all I have time for now, but there are many people who can offer additional links, and of course commentary.

45 Posted on 10/18/1999 07:32:11 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Lurker

To each his own…if I was shopping, which I’m not, I would go with an SKS (make sure the magazine numbers match the reciever) and 1500 rounds of ammo. 500 for practice and 1000 for storage. A used Mossberg shotgun and 300 rounds os “assorted” rounds. A Smith and Wesson model 65 pistol 38/357. This is your most basic handgun for the novice.

Then find a old Remington Nylon 66 22 rifle ( a pawn shop is a good place to look) it hold 15 rounds. Then buy 2000 rounds of 22. Then buy 3 very Good quality Knives and learn how to sharpen them, an good axe would be advisable too.

Get some heavy fishing line, a few empty tin cans cans that have the lids attached. Tighten the line over areas of access to your home, along the side of your house etc. put a few pebbles in the can and close the lids over the tightend fishing line. Now have a early warning security system.

A good pair of boots, warm jacket, a sleeping bag and canteen just in case you have to get out of Dodge fast.

Forget the high dollar firearms, there best left to those who are qualified and can make the most out of their potential. REMEMBER above all KEEP IT SIMPLE.

46 Posted on 10/18/1999 08:25:33 PDT by Thorn11cav
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To: Red Redwine

To get off the subject and humor you…..Did you guys see the CNN/TIME piece on the evil .50 cal. sniper rifles? If I had the $5k one guy said he had to start an arsenal, then I would buy one while you still could (not at all practical,unless a time comes when we have to start hitting armored limos).

Speaking of gun control and the .50cal. debate, what scares me is first, I dont want something so big and wielding. I dont like the .50 cal. for anything I want to do with it. BUt what scares the bejebbers out of me is the govt. saying that they should be banned because of their long range (2000M+) and penetrating power.

Now get this, if the govt.can come in and say, that gun shoots too far and penetrates too much, I can just hear it a few years (orsooner) now them saying, “THat .300 and .308 shoot upwards of 700-1200M, and penetrates too much, we must ban those.

Next comes the all calibres above .223.

I can see in 2003 a so called policeman who “cares” in front of congress saying, “THese AR-15/AK weapons shoot a round that can pentrate our police cars with ease, and our bullet proof vests are no deterrant to that powerful round. THe .223/7.62 rounds are just too powerful for civilians.”

Well, Im starting to ramble, but the govt dictating what is too big/to powerful, too cheap, too expensive really scares me. If we, as gunowners dont call our congressmen and put a stop to this foolishness, we may see the .50 cal. go the way of the Thompson submachine gun, and then whats next? Your Remington 700 (I never shot a deer at 600M)?

Personally, I believe we should scrap all, YES ALL, gun control laws, even the NFA act of 34. People should be able to buy any KINETIC energy weapon, no matter how fast it fires. If the round goes “Boom or burn” when it hits, then you must get an explosives licence.

To sum it up, I don’t fear my law-abiding neighbor, he has a registred machine gun, but I am scared to death of that repeat offender, criminal crackhead out on parole (for good behavior)armed with a .22 piece of crap!

Thanks for all the input on what guns to get started with guys!

47 Posted on 10/18/1999 08:43:07 PDT by DCBryan1
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To: Thorn11cav

Good advice. Also, do not forget a good holster and sling. I have never been comforatable with the idea of stuffing a weapon under the belt pointed at my zipper! {:^O Bianchi gun leather is pricy but excellent and durable. Synthetics are also widely available, Bianchi and Uncle Mike’s. Vero Vellini neoprene slings are remarkably carry comfortable with loaded (8-11#) long guns.

48 Posted on 10/18/1999 08:47:14 PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Lurker

Any advice on improving your aim with a pistol? While I am deadly with a scoped rifle, I recently took up pistol shooting. 7 and 15 yard is not a problem but when I get to the 25 Yd., I’m all over the place with both hands or single although with both I get some what better. I know some of it has to do with vision, I’m farsighted and the sights are hard to see. I’ve been thinking about using a very weak pair of reading glasses just to see what happens.

49 Posted on 10/18/1999 09:19:39 PDT by Hang’emAll (–GOA Life Member)
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To: DCBryan1

—To get off the subject and humor you…..Did you guys see the CNN/TIME piece on the evil .50 cal. sniper rifles? …—

No, I missed that CNN hit piece. A TV show? I never have any use for that sort of “news” trash, and if I know about it I’ll skip it intentionally. I guess I could turn the sound down and look at the pictures, but I’m sure they’d show the reporter’s stupid snout more than the guns.

I do agree the liberal condemnation of the .50 is a “camel’s nose under the tent” thing, and if they can “get” the .50 they’ll go after the rest. Heck, they’ll go after the rest anyway, and everyone should be able to see that by now.

It’s supposed to be a free country “of the People” (anybody remember that old-fashioned, archaic phrase?) so it seems to me that firearms ownership should be tied to voting rights. If you can vote, you can tote. At the same time, however, I’d tighten up some on voting rights. Motor Voter, for example, is a wide-open avenue to corruption of the process. But in a government of, by, and for the People, I see no excuse for thinking the People who are trustworthy to select the government are not also trustworthy for firearms possession.

50 Posted on 10/18/1999 09:24:15 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: TS2000

TS2000,

A revolver has no safety, so it is simpler to use than an auto-loader. You sound more like a gun-enthusiast than the average beginner. That is good. You were likely to educate yourself about all the advantages/disadvantages of the gun you chose, more likely to seek some form of firearms training and more likely to practive sufficienly with your firearm.

Imagine a beginner carrying an automatic for self-defense but never practicing with it. So he is attacked by an assailant, pulls out his SIG and squeezes the trigger. Nothing happens and the bad guy closes the 10 yards in 2 seconds and our regular Joes loses the fight. He lost because he didn’t practice taking the SIG off “safe” when drawing his weapon, he panicked and just pulled the trigger. With the safety on, of course the gun did not go off.

This kind of thing is not uncommon among beginners in real life. It takes quite a lot of practice drawing your weapon and disarming the safety so that it becomes automatic and you do it under the grip of combat stress. For the many who won’t train and practice, a revolver is superior — no safe to forget. Of course, choosing a Glock would allow the use of an auto-loader without this problem…

A reason that a revolver is good for female beginners is that some don’t have the natural strength to rack the slide. Any woman can learn to rack the slide on any gun, through practive. The more she does it the more those muscles will develop and it gets easier over time. But imagine that our lady beginner needs to use her auto in self-defense and only then finds out that she can’t manage to pull the slide back all the way to chamber a round. Maybe the bad guy will run away at the sight of her gun alone. But maybe the bad guy will tackle her, take the gun and kill her with it. A revolver is simpler — no slide to bother with.

Of course, I would recommend a mode of carry that begins with a round already chambered — one less thing to worry about, one less time-consuming task to deal with under combat stress at a time when you are attempting to defend your life or the life of a loved one…

51 Posted on 10/18/1999 09:55:31 PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Lurker

Hey everyone, I just inherited a very old 16 gauge shotgun. It is at least 50 or 60 years old. It is the kind that “breaks” in the middle to insert a shell. It looks pretty dirty inside and the wooden stock feels a bit loose. Is it worth it to fix it up? If so, how?

52 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:19:49 PDT by Drawsing
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To: Lurker

Great (non-Vanity) post.

My two cents:

For rifles, try the .308. It’s a NATO round, it’s a proven performer, and VERY ACCURATE at long distances…especially useful when you want to reach wayyy out and touch something. Rounds can be found in abundance anywhere in the country and, should NATO ever actually come over here, they will be using the same ammo.

For pistols, I concur that a revolver (wheel gun) is probably best for beginners, although a Double Action Only (DBA) semi-auto might be a good choice, too; especially since it is often chambered in another NATO round — the 9mm (although I’m partial to .40 cal myself).

Again, the 12 ga. shotgun, especially a pump, is a really great all around firearm, especially if you have multiple barrels for it.

BOTTOM LINE: If you ever, ever thought you might want a gun…any gun, there is no better time to buy one than right NOW!

Make no mistake, certain politicians do want to completely disarm ALL CITIZENS. They may well succeed in passing such legislation in the near future. Those who have already purchased their guns will at least have the opportunity to become law-breakers. All others will truly be sheep ready for shearing.

53 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:19:50 PDT by Gig
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To: Lurker

Good assesment Lurker,
Glad to see I am right up to speed with your program.
But if I had to choose one gun it would be the General Purpose Shotgun.
Short barreled, pump action, peep sights, flashlight mounted to it.
Realistically, to defend home and farm these days that is all I really need.
If the crap hits the fan, the GPS would still be first choice, and I would use it “liberate” a weapon that could
“stop any assailant at ranges approaching 500 yards”.

I also highly recomend that anyone using a shotgun to look into the reduced recoil law enforcement slugs and buckshot.
I find it makes the shotgun easier and less abusive to shoot a bunch of rounds, as well as the fact they are more accurate.

54 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:26:26 PDT by fod
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To: Lurker, All

Lurker this is one of the best threads I’ve seen in the last few weeks it’s very practical and thought prevoking.

Everyone’s posts are very good.

I’m going to save this for further in depth reading.

I think your right on the mark with your choices of firearms.

55 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:36:46 PDT by the irate magistrate
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

I own and carry a Sig P239 (9mm), and I can tell you that Sig’s do not have “active” safeties like the scenario you present. They have a decocker that lowers the hammer without firing the round in the chamber, placing the gun in double-action mode for that first round.

56 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:49:39 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: Lurker

Really an outstanding piece of work, L.

I started that thread last night about “What would you do with $5K”, and had not the slightest idea where it would go. You really captured in this thread what I was sort of looking for on that one, and I sort of summed it down to what you have said here.

Thanks.

57 Posted on 10/18/1999 10:51:29 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: dls442

Bingo! If you can’t assemble the weapon how do you expect to clean/repair it? Send it out?

58 Posted on 10/18/1999 11:05:28 PDT by The Last Straw
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To: Hang’emAll

Any advice on improving your aim with a pistol? While I am deadly with a scoped rifle, I recently took up pistol shooting. 7 and 15 yard is not a problem but when I get to the 25 Yd.,

Practice. Get yourself a Ruger single six 22 or a Ruger bull barrel 22 automatic that you can shoot all day for ten bucks. I used to shoot both pistols at 100 yards. The technique you learn will transfer to higher caliber pistols. The sightin on any pistol must be calibrated to your specific hand and your grasp must be consistent.

59 Posted on 10/18/1999 11:09:16 PDT by RLK
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To: Lurker

Excellent post!

A word of caution for anyone considering an SKS or AK-type rifle: the quality of these things varies wildly, from you-can-bet-your-life-on-it-EXCELLENT to don’t-load-it-unless-you-want-a-fatal-accident-DANGEROUS! Most of the latter category (the ones I’ve seen, at least) seem to originate in China.

Just one more advantage to ‘buying American’: most US-made firearms have magazine releases that actually work, and won’t fire unexpectedly when you move the safety from ‘safe’ to ‘fire’…

60 Posted on 10/18/1999 11:11:04 PDT by Who is John Galt?
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To: Lurker

You just described my arsenal. Well done. Good advice. Heed good advice people. It will save your life.

61 Posted on 10/18/1999 11:18:32 PDT by Silver Sumo
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To: Lurker

Great post!

I’m sure there are those who will disagree with you about various parts but overall, a great post.

My wife finally agreed to go with me to the range last week. We both fired a S&W 357 with a 6 inch barrel. It was great.

Right now I’m looking at the 357, probably Taurus and possibly the S&W 40. I want to stay away from the 9 mm just because of the 22 different kinds of 9mm ammo. It can get confusing.

62 Posted on 10/18/1999 11:25:47 PDT by Paul L. Hepperla (paulhep@terracom.net)
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To: Hang’emAll

Not hitting the bullseye with a splattering paintbrush feel?

Step one is point-of-aim. See the target, “center of mass”. Concentrate on the target. CONCENTRATE. Because your weapon is to become an extension of your hand, practice pointing your hand in front of the TV, any of the talking heads will do. I have my favorites. Hand-eye coordination is the key and it must become hard wired in your brain. If the handgun is an ergonomic fit to your hand, then this process is much easier and “natural” to you. Pull the trigger as you would squeeze a tomato without breaking its skin, never jerk or you’ll send flyers to 2 o’clock, if right handed. You’ll likely shake on target, so let it weave a figure eight in a natural timing so you’ll know when you weave past dead center. It’s natural feeling. Hell, it even makes sense.

Step 2 Practice is the only process. .22LR is the only affordable tool. Shoot slowly and deliberately at 3 and 7 yards concentrating like Luke Skywalker attacking the Death Star. The handgun sights will become like “ghost ring” sights on CQB long guns. You will be aware of them and they will align your hand, but you will not set the bulls eye dot atop the front post evenly spaced with the rear notch, blah, blah, blah. It must and it will become as natural pointing your loaded weapon as pointing your finger to the moon while romancing your sweetheart. It matters little whether you’re pointing at Tranquillity Base or Oceanus Procellarum, liver or aorta “center of mass”. Get very comfortable at 7 yards. Get good at 7 yards.

Step 3 is moving to 15 and 25 yards, then 50 yards after your confidence is established. Consistant first shot hits will develop in about 100-500 rounds. Multiple hits should arrive in 2,000 – 5,000 rounds. .22LR looks better now? Muzzle flashes and sound will fade until insignificant. Or is it just your hearing and eye sight? Follow up shots get much easier. Welcome to double taps, a rapid following shot. The weapon’s caliber is secondary to skill. That splattering paint brush feel will become good enough for government work.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Only the former is free.{8^(

63 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:05:45 PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Lurker

If you are willing to settle for slightly out of phase rifles, such as Mauser 98’s or those lovely ole Moisin-Nagents, hoo boy, can you beat that deal on rifles. I agree with you entirely about revolvers, have a brace of them myself. Love the old .45 but I don’t have time or energy to shoot enough to maintain any sort of proficiency level with them. Besides which, speedloaders work about as well as changing magazines and you don’t run the risk of losing parts all over the floor when it hits the fan. A 12 gauge shotgun will serve basic needs of self-defense anywhere. You must learn how to handle them in confined spaces such as hallways. If you are not careful, you won’t be holding your shotgun, some thug will!

64 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:10:09 PDT by Old Mountain man (bigbobsanders@yahoo.com)
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To: Lurker & Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Lurker:

The reason I emphasized revolvers over semi autos was largely the cost factor.

This is a good point… Although I think that there are some decent quality semi-autos out there… Kel-Tec comes to mind – although I only have experience with their new P32. You can get one of their handguns in 9mm and .40cal for a little over $200, I believe.

Hey, I love semis too. I pointed out that I own a Colt .45. I just think that for the first time handgun buyer the cost differential is better spent on the revolver and practice ammo. 200.00 dollars buys a lot of ammo after all.

Agreed! And not just for practice, but for stockpiling (there’s that eeeevil word again!) ammo… A handgun without ammo is basically an expensive hammer!

Freedom_Is_Not_Free:

Well, thanks for the compliments… I guess that I could be considered a gun enthusiast, but I want to point out that it doesn’t take very long to become one even with no experience with guns whatsoever!

There is a TON of information on the Internet about guns – handguns, shotguns, rifles, different calibers, history, etc. I suggest that anyone interested should read up on as much as possible – of course, don’t spend all your time reading – get out there and buy a gun and practice with it!

You are absolutely wrong, but also correct… The above scenario could happen with certain semi-auto handguns, but not with the SIG. The SIG does not have a safety. (You can almost hear the liberals cringe at that statement, can’t you?)

This was one of the main reasons that I purchased the SIG over another handgun. It is a very safe gun, but does not have a traditional lever safety. The P229 that I have is double-action/single-action. What this means is that the first trigger pull is a LONG trigger pull – about 12lbs of pressure. This trigger pull cocks the hammer and then releases it – firing the gun. After the first shot the hammer stays back. Thus, the next trigger pull is a SHORT trigger pull – requiring only about 4.5lbs of pressure. This makes it easier to fire subsequent shots. Finally, there is a decocker lever on the gun which allows you to safely lower the hammer of the gun from the cocked position (after you have fired the gun) to the lowered position. After you have decocked, you are back to double-action mode where it will take a LONG trigger pull to fire the gun.

The long trigger pull is the only safety. I was at a gun show recently where a gentlemen next to me was about to purchase a SIG 9mm. He asked the salesman where the safety was. The salesman pointed at the buyer indicating correctly that HE was the safety! The man was reconsidering his purchase (he had already even handed over his credit card and was about to get it back)! Well, I couldn’t let that happen and jumped in to “assist” – letting him know that the long trigger pull would prevent any accidental firing – there is not way to fire the gun unless something was pushing on the trigger very hard (i.e. a finger). He bought the gun – hooray for him and the rest of SIG owners!

Glocks are another gun which do not have a traditional safety, but are one of the safest semi-autos on the market. For the same reasoning that I purchased the SIG for myself, I got a 9mm Glock for my wife. Both guns are simple to operate – you get the gun, point it at the target, pull the trigger. Period. As long as a bullet is in the chamber (as it should be when you carry/store it) the gun will fire when the trigger is pulled.

You are right about safeties – you MUST practice with whatever gun you purchase because if it has a safety it must be automatic for you to switch it off before you fire. I was talking with a cop this past weekend (he was carrying a SIG and I was talking with him about that) and he said that plenty of officers have been killed because their backup guns had safeties that they weren’t familiar with… Some guns require you to flip a lever UP and others DOWN – each is different. Use the same gun – get familiar with it – and you will be ok.

By the way – the SIG can also be bought in a Double-Action Only mode where EVERY trigger pull is LONG (12lbs of pressure). Glocks are also Double-Action Only (if you can apply that term to a gun without a hammer), but their trigger pulls are usually about 5lbs (although you can purchase and install different triggers for an easier or harder trigger pull).

ABSOLUTELY!!! Please, anyone that buys a gun – IGNORE EVERYTHING that you see in movies or on TV. Most shows do not accurately depict anything about guns… I love movies, but most are just incredibly inaccurate. For instance, in Die Hard (and just about every other action movie) the terrorists always rack the slide right when they are about to shoot someone – as if they wouldn’t already have a round in the chamber ready to fire!!! Then, of course, is one of the most blatant errors in movies ever in Die Hard 2 where McClaine talks about the “Glock 7” which is a porcelin gun undetectable by metal detectors. Wrong on all counts (Glock start with model 17 – because the original 9mm held 17 rounds; Glocks have a polymer frame – the slide is not though; and they are detectable by metal detectors).

Another advantage of Glocks is that the liberals don’t like them! HA! But cops do – it is one of the most popular guns on police forces.

65 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:19:51 PDT by TS2000 (TruthSeeker2000@Yahoo.com)
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To: RLK

Practice. Get yourself a Ruger single six 22 or a Ruger bull barrel 22 automatic that you can shoot all day for ten bucks. I used to shoot both pistols at 100 yards.

Thanks for the advice. I actually have an old Ruger 22, bought it 30 years ago for $29. It is still in good condition and I will take it out and try what you said.

I was only making $1800 dollars a year then in the USAF. 1 bedroom fully furnished apartments were only $120/mo and a Nash Rambler was $1750.

And I might add that if Clinton pulled his crap back then he would be serving time right now.

66 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:30:20 PDT by Hang’emAll (–GOA Life Member)
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To: Drawsing

—I just inherited a very old 16 gauge shotgun. It is at least 50 or 60 years old. It is the kind that “breaks” in the middle to insert a shell. It looks pretty dirty inside and the wooden stock feels a bit loose. Is it worth it to fix it up? If so, how?—

First you need to take the gun to a gunsmith for a safety inspection. Make sure it’s safe to shoot. The gunsmith will probably have a bluebook you can use to get an estimate of value, so you can decide about fix-up (presuming it passes the safety inspection.) There’s a good variety of products available for do-it-yourself gun restoration and refinishing. It might be worth doing yourself even if the value doesn’t justify professional work. I don’t have any links at hand about gun restoration and refinishing, but I’m sure there’s a lot of info on the web, so I’d suggest a web search.

67 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:35:25 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Hang’emAll

—Any advice on improving your aim with a pistol? … I know some of it has to do with vision, I’m farsighted and the sights are hard to see. I’ve been thinking about using a very weak pair of reading glasses just to see what happens.—

You need a sharp view of the front sight for accuracy with a handgun. The front sight is your basic reference for aiming, and you need a well-focused image of it. So, yes, if “your arms aren’t long enough” try the reading glasses.

68 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:42:27 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Hang’emAll

Re: Your pistol accuracy. I will probably be repeating things you already know. First, use the weaver stance and the sights at 25 yards. Second, An extremely weak pair of bifocal glasses no correction on top slight reading correction below helps front sight focus(Do NOT Forget shatter resistence). Third, some rubber grips do help. Fourth, try a ,22 cal pistol for practicing. A couple thousands rounds out of that Browning Buck Mark do wonders. Then the .45 cal and 9mm both become far more natural. I find that gradually working the target back with the .22 cal helps those I try to help on the range. I use an NRA 50 ft slow fire .22cal bullseye that I gradually work out to 25yards rapid fire. I find that such techniques tend to work well for rapid fire semi auto work.

The one problem with the NRA target is five .45 cal holes and there is no center left to fire at so no way to register hits. However the 5 ring is smaller than a B-40 silhoette(SP?) so it does give a greater challenge. The .22 cal helps the trigger control and the breathing cheaper than anything.

Stay well

69 Posted on 10/18/1999 12:44:03 PDT by harpseal
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Thanks for taking the time to post your knowledge for a gun newbie like myself.

I came up with an idea a while ago of rigging up a mechanism from an old pump shot gun to an electric motor turned on by an infrared motion sensor. Then anyone coming up the staircase would hear a shotgun cocking sound echo from the upstairs guest bathroom. It should scare the begeezus out of anyone that doesn’t belong there and be a very effective burglar alarm, one that can be left on automatic most of the time without the worry of false alarms disturbing the neighbors. If a murderer did come in it would give me time to unlock a gun while the intruder’s focus would be on the opposite side of the upstairs. What’s your opinion about this? The main thing that worries me is how a cop invading my house would react. If he’s a trained by Rambo movie type he may shoot the place up and then frame the dead. It’s a shame that’s a worry these days.

Saturday I started the Calif. 10 day waiting period for my first 2 guns, a Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12 guage shot gun and a S&W model 638 revolver. I liked the S&W as a back up because it’s tiny and can be fired through a pocket if necessary, something you can’t do with a semi-auto or anything large.

I was moved to buy the guns mainly because of all the anti-gun laws being signed by Gray Davis. I doubt I would have made the purchase otherwise. In all sincerity thank you Gray Davis for the push, I’m very proud of my new guns! Remind Big Brother to now knock before entering.

70 Posted on 10/18/1999 13:05:52 PDT by Reeses
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To: Drawsing

The 16 gauge (nickname the sweet 16) is an exellent gauge for hunting and for self defense. Your particular gin may well be valuable. I would suggest you take it to a reputable dealer who will at least look it up in the blue book of gun values. The most important things in determining value are condition and make. For all I know you could have a Purdy or a Parker. In which case you could sell the heirloom and do the $5000 route should you so desire.

In short it is definitely worth checking into and may be a very valuable item. One other thing is that by inheriting it it is very likely the government has no record of this firearm.

Stay well

71 Posted on 10/18/1999 13:19:36 PDT by harpseal
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To: Lurker

I very much agree with your advice to beginners and I for one think it is valuable to all. I will let the experts deal with all the questions of which caliber is better for what but I would note the following a 7.62mm X 39 mm has very similar balistics to a .30-30 winchester. A 20ga or 16ga shotgun does pack sufficient punch to ruin any perp’s whole day. I would note that they do make 20ga slugs that are suitable for white tail deer. I personally would prefer a .20ga for upland birds but each to his own. If I had to choose any one shotgum i think it might be a Mossberg 590 with 20 inch barrel, ghost ring sights, and speed feed stock. Again this is my personal choice. I have used firearms of many different styles and types over the years and I personally like the following sidearms model 1911 .45ACP, Smith and Wesson models 59 & 6906. Browning Hi-power, .45Long Colt peacemaker, Ruger Redhawk, Smith and Wesson model 66, and several others.

The big advantage of a sidearm is that you can have it with you when a long gun would be a little bit to obtrusive. I will not engage in any discussion of the advantages of .223 vs .308. Both have their advantages and disadvantages for particular situations.

I would further note that the terrain one faces here in New England is vastly different than in the great plains or the High Sierra’s. Yes we do have horizons here but they involve the ocean. An exellent post that I think will help those who are aquiring their first firearms.

Stay well

72 Posted on 10/18/1999 13:42:34 PDT by harpseal
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To: mcmuffin

I would suggest the following. Go to a range where you can try out an example of your choice before buying. Second, practice, practice, practice.

Stay well

73 Posted on 10/18/1999 13:45:47 PDT by harpseal
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To: Reeses

Simpler than rigging up an actual mechanism to a motor would be to record the sound into your computer and hook up your motion detector to home automation software that will play back your sound over some decent speakers. Do a search on home automation. It is really pretty simple to set up. You could even get creative and add speakers and other sounds all over the house. Your intruder will think he’s walked into some kind of heavily defended gun-running headquarters.

74 Posted on 10/18/1999 13:50:55 PDT by Drawsing
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To: Lurker

I worked as a paramedic for 13 years. My observations:

Shotguns are only reliably deadly from a self-defense standpoint at point-blank range. I’ll make an exception in the case of deer slugs, which are pretty obviously powerful bullets, just based on their physical appearance alone. But as far as shotgun pellets are concerned, I’ve never seen anyone who was shot with them from a distance who wasn’t standing around talking with a bloody towel in his hand when the ambulance arrives.

9mm hollowpoint bullets are equally ineffectual. They will often fail to clear the intracostal rib spaces in the case of a chest wound. Any hollowpoint under 125 grains is probably too easily stopped by body mass to be effective.

Getting back to shotguns, I believe they are overrated for personal defense. The fact that the anti-gun lobby doesn’t want to go after them says a lot as well. They know that rifles are a more serious threat, as weaponry goes.

I would put a shotgun in the same category as a .22 rifle. It will probably kill you at point-blank range, but anything else is highly variable.

75 Posted on 10/18/1999 14:14:39 PDT by CartoonK
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To: CartoonK

You obviously haven’t seen the damage 00 buckshot can do.

76 Posted on 10/18/1999 14:19:52 PDT by dls442
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To: SevenDaysInMay

Thanks for the detailed reply. Looking forward to trying your advice out.

77 Posted on 10/18/1999 14:24:41 PDT by Hang’emAll (–GOA Life Member)
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To: harpseal

I value your advice as I know you speak from much experience, thank you.

78 Posted on 10/18/1999 14:29:49 PDT by Hang’emAll (–GOA Life Member)
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To: Lurker

Thanks for the heads up! A few months back, I purchased my first (well, ‘my only’ at this point) gun. I probably did it the ‘wrong way’, but things turned out quite well. Without ever having fired a shot in my life, I decided to go with what ‘felt right’ in my hand. Held the revolvers, but they just didn’t ‘sit right’. Held several semi-autos, but nothing clicked til I got to the Sig P239.

When I picked it up, I knew I found my gun. I plunked down my $$, came back a few days later, turned to my BF (who was the driving force behind the purchase) and said, I guess it’s time to learn how to use this thing.

I’ve shot several different types of guns since (thanks to BF, to the NRA gun safety course, and to former-Marine step-father) and I’m still THRILLED with my Sig.

But I have wanted to expand my collection (I truly believe that guns are inherently social creatures with high affiliative needs and that they get lonely if there’s only one in the house) so a big THANK YOU to everyone who has posted opinions. But I’m still VERY up-in-the-air about rifle vs shotgun. To be honest, I find the shotgun to be a VERY intimidating gun to shoot. I tried both at the NRA course and wasn’t too thrilled with either….

As far as the strength necessary to ‘rack the slide’, I found a technique on the net using a ‘push/pull’ approach. At the NRA course, they said it was acceptable, but not preferred. When I did it their way, it was much more difficult and I ended up getting my skin pinched when it didn’t work. So I think I’ll stick with my technique.

79 Posted on 10/18/1999 15:17:55 PDT by technochick99 (jxb123@aol.com)
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To: technochick99

—(I truly believe that guns are inherently social creatures with high affiliative needs and that they get lonely if there’s only one in the house)—

It’s true. When it’s quiet you can hear them crying if they’re all alone. Fortunately there’s no ethnic discrimination among them and all different kinds of guns get along very well together.

🙂

80 Posted on 10/18/1999 15:38:13 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Lurker

There are other calibers available as well, and I would be remiss if I didn’t tell you dear reader that .270 is a fine cartridge as well.

My huntin’ partner and I both use the .270 Winchester cartridge. It is superlative, and effective on all North American game, save the Alaskan bears. The .270 is at its finest when used with 130-grain bullets on deer-sized game.

With appropriate ammunition, all of the popular mid-caliber rifles are excellent for big game, provided the shooter can accurately place their bullet. Some examples are the .264 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, 7mm Mauser, 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, and .300 Winchester Magnum, to name a few. Don’t dismiss the old .30-30, either- every deer I shot with my Marlin was knocked off its feet.

Good post!

81 Posted on 10/18/1999 15:48:13 PDT by tangofox
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To: SevenDaysInMay

I, too, cut my teeth with a .22 rimfire (old Remington Browning patent semi-auto), using one starting at the age of 9 extensively to hunt birds and ground squirrels, etc., taking some at pretty respectable ranges. Later on I was also exposed to Remington Model 52 target rifles and was pretty well able to shoot the centers out of 50 ft match targets. A 40X and a high power scope should indeed be an accurate combination, but the Musca Domestica at 100 yds sounds a little extreme.

You will have to admit that the trajectory of a .22 rimfire does not really lend itself to ranges beyond about 75 yds, unless you have an excellent rifle, pretty accurate range estimation and can make proper sight adjustments. The energy levels are also pretty low, therefore the remark about the .223 general range limitation.

Personally, I eventually gave up the .22 rifle for small game such as rabbits and squirrels at moderate ranges and went to a .22 High Standard pistol with target sights.

Certainly concur about the shame of today’s PC attitude towards marksmanship. Familiarity with weapons teaches a skill and discipline, as well as a knowledge of the effects of improper use.

As a point of interest, I knew of a case in Alaska of a grizly bear being killed by a .22 pistol. This was, however, not by choice, but a real life and death situation at extremely close quarters. The bullet entered the eye socket and was able to do the job. Bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement!

82 Posted on 10/18/1999 15:53:42 PDT by Gnarly
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To: JohnYankeeCmpsr

Yep, there have been many deer taken by a .22. There have also been a lot that have gotten away wounded. A well placed shot from a .22 will take down a MUCH larger animal than a deer under the right conditions.

Good choice for the rifle! Hard to beat the old ’06 for just about any purpose. I also like some of the “kids” such as 25-06 and .35 Whelen.

Have used a few Winchester 94s in my time, but preferred the Savage 99 in .300 for a lever action, esp in more open country.

Well, the “horizon” varies quite a bit, depending on what part of the West you are in. Some areas have a similar horizon to yours, just different type of trees! 🙂

83 Posted on 10/18/1999 16:08:09 PDT by Gnarly
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To: Lurker

Bravo L, great post. I agree completely. For novices wheel guns are the best way to go. Have even heard stories about experienced shooters drawing their semi-autos in the heat of battle and ejecting the magazine. Bang! one shot and your done.

Only thing I would like to add is to get a set of ghost ring sights for that home-defense shotgun, makes it more effective at longer ranges.

84 Posted on 10/18/1999 16:31:43 PDT by gc4nra (darkjedirc@jps.net)
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To: All

Some observations about revolvers:

1. A friend and his wife got into handguns, buying a dozen (both revolvers and pistols) in the span of a few years. Both shoot best with their Smith & Wesson Model 19 revolver in .357 Magnum.

2. I own a variety of handguns, and let others fire them all. Everyone prefers, and shoots best with, my Taurus revolver in .357 Magnum.

3. After World War II, Col. Rex Applegate, who trained the OSS, said that nearly everyone who went through his training program fired their best scores with the Smith and Wesson Model 10 revolver in .38 Special.

4. In a not-so-well publicized incident, Dallas police officers drew their Glock 9mm’s and fired 117 (not a typo) rounds at a single suspect. They hit 5 parked cars, 4 street lights, 3 houses, and missed the suspect completely.

85 Posted on 10/18/1999 16:41:28 PDT by tangofox
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To: harpseal

I would suggest the following. Go to a range where you can try out an example of your choice before buying. Second, practice, practice, practice.

Thanks! I did exactly that when I desired a Glock. Great weapon, just not for me. I love my S&W 686 .357 revolver.
The Browning High Power 9mm is in my sights next. I like the hammers!!

86 Posted on 10/18/1999 17:29:13 PDT by mcmuffin
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To: Hang’emAll

I forgot to mention not to practice in front a pretty girl. Even if she is the reason for all this, she’ll ruin your concentration and incite you to brag when you shouldn’t. Women are often better at hand-eye coordination than men anyway. Some of our Freudian issues are better left to ourselves.;8^(

87 Posted on 10/18/1999 17:36:48 PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: CartoonK

—Shotguns are only reliably deadly from a self-defense standpoint at point-blank range.—

A technical thing here. “Point-blank” range is the distance to which the sights don’t need adjustment to hit the target. It’s a distance that’s short enough so that bullet drop, due to gravity, doesn’t have to be taken into account in aiming. It would be at least 100 yards for most centerfire rifle calibers. I haven’t heard the concept used much for shotguns, but I believe it would probably be at least 40 yards or so depending on the load.

I think you may have meant “muzzle contact” range. That would be a short distance, where the muzzle of the gun is either in contact with the target or almost in contact, within inches.

I’ve read that the smaller sizes of shot, birdshot, will produce an ugly but superficial wound, because the shot doesn’t penetrate very much. That would go along with what you’re talking about. Would you happen to know what sizes of shot were involved in the cases you’ve seen? The larger sizes of shot, buckshot, should have more penetration due to their greater mass. I’ve further read that #1 buckshot gives the best combination of penetration and pellet count for a 12 gauge load for a personal defense situation. Fortunately, I’ve never had to verify that.

88 Posted on 10/18/1999 17:53:25 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: tangofox

In a not-so-well publicized incident, Dallas police officers drew their Glock 9mm’s and fired 117 (not a typo) rounds at a single suspect. They hit 5 parked cars, 4 street lights, 3 houses, and missed the suspect completely.

I would submit that this is because of the cops, not because of the Glock, which is a very accurate handgun.

Remember: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Even if you are a LEO 😉

89 Posted on 10/18/1999 18:25:13 PDT by TS2000 (TruthSeeker2000@Yahoo.com)
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To: Lurker

Now, for us poor people, lets talk about some nice old military rifles! A Swedish Mauser model 1896 can be had for under $150 and can easily kill with open field sites at 3 or 4 hundred yards.

For us really cheap folks i am holding a $65 spanish model!

90 Posted on 10/18/1999 18:45:42 PDT by Critter (jim1@javanet.com)
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To: TS2000

I would submit that this is because of the cops, not because of the Glock, which is a very accurate handgun.

Agreed. My point is that having hi-cap autos did a whole lot of nothing for the Dallas PD, except allow them to miss more often. Obviously, firearms training was not a high priority for this force. (Then again, military forces around the world, since going full auto, fire about 50,000 rounds for each enemy soldier they kill.)

As you said, practice, practice, practice. I highly recommend a daily dry firing regimen. I think it was Jeff Cooper that said,

You are no more armed because you have possession of a firearm than you are a musician because you own a piano.

91 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:07:15 PDT by tangofox
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To: Critter

I just got home from my favorite local gun shop. There was a guy in there wanting to sell a Swedish Mauser (can’t recall the age or model, but it was chambered for 6.5 x 55 mm, which is an outstanding round). He paid $169 for it, and seemed ready to let it go for about $100 after only shooting it a handful of times. He’s having financial difficulties, according to him, and shouldn’t have bought it a few weeks ago when he did. I was wishing that I had the cash in my pocket, ’cause I would have walked out of there a very proud owner!

As it was, I put a Romanian AK variant on layaway. The owner likes me, and I send him quite a bit of business when I’m able (his is the only store that I recommend in the entire area), so he cut the price to $199.95 for me. That comes with one 5-round and one 10-round magazine, so I also put three more 10-rounders on the ticket with the rifle. Sweet little piece of work, man! Gonna be the first of December before I can pick it up though, due to “funding”. This one is going to come in under my wife’s radar for now. It’ll be a nice surprise for her when I take her out to shoot it!

Now I need about $500 to buy ammo for that one and the rest….

92 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:14:01 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke

Can he put one away for me too? I’ll take one of those if I can get the same deal! Maybe he can ship it to an FFL here in CT for me.

93 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:25:20 PDT by Critter (jim1@javanet.com)
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To: Lurker

I really enjoyed what you wrote. It was very informative.

A first time gun purchaser has a great deal to think about. What would be your recommendation for a woman?

While I know there are lots of enthusiastic females out there who are proud to carry and operate the same gun as any man, still, for the less-experienced, who is a casual user and not able to frequently get to a shooting range. Something that is very accurate but does not require extensive practice to use, but is effective.

There must be something that suits a woman’s style. Something perhaps smaller than a man’s gun (Magnum or Colt 45), with little recoil. Something that could be concealed in a small handbag, but has the power to effectively stop a rapidly moving felon who has just broken into one’s apartment. Something effective enough to give pause to a person accompanying him on his breaking and entering?

It would be nice to have something that fires repeatedly,if necessary, and does not require time loss in removing a safety? Something that fires repeatedly (a revolver?)

Thanks for any advice you can offer. Oh, also something that does not cost a lot?

94 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:29:43 PDT by ForceTen (force10partners@worldnet.att.net)
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To: Critter

He’d probably charge you his “normal” price, which is $219.95. If you’re interested in that at that price, I’m pretty sure he would ship it to an FFL in your area. They aren’t open tomorrow, but I’ll ask him on Wednesday if you send me an e-mail to remind me.

95 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:30:18 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: ForceTen

You asked Lurker, but I’d like to offer my $0.02’s worth on this as I have been helping a lady work her way through this process.

If the gun is to be carried and used for home defense, then I recommend a revolver for a lady. If she’s going to have a couple of different firearms for those two situations, then I would invest in a 20-gauge (or 12-gauge if she’s a little more stout) pump-action shotgun for the home, and still go with the revolver for carry purposes.

One of the best models out there right now for carrying, in my opinion, is the Smith & Wesson “Bodyguard”. It isn’t quite hammerless, as it has a gnurled knob on the hammer that could be grabbed to make the gun single action, if time permits, but it isn’t so pronounced as to snag on something on the way out of a purse. Other than that, it’s double-action, which is the most likely scenario anyway in a draw-and-shoot confrontation. I’d get a .357 magnum for her, and load it with .38 special or .38 special +P ammo. The heavier frame and lighter load (which is still very effective) make for a nicely softened recoil in most instances, and as has been mentioned here before, revolvers don’t have jams like auto’s do; you just pull the trigger again.

The “Bodyguard” model can be had brand new for about $400 or so, depending on where you buy. Shop around some. And good luck.

96 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:44:43 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke

What are the specifics on that gun? Make, model, etc. I’ll check with my local guy and see what he will do me one for.

97 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:46:38 PDT by Critter (jim1@javanet.com)
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To: Critter

I knew you were gonna ask me that…..

Hang on….looking….

ROMAK-991 7.62x39mm

Sweet! I just noticed that he gave me a break on the extra magazines, too! He knocked $5 off each one ($15 instead of $20).

All you folks go to The Armory when you get a chance and see if they are in the ballpark for you on your ammo needs. They ship all over, and are just a really good group of people. I don’t get a commission or anything, but I do try to send them business because 1.) they have really good prices on most stuff, and 2.) they’re outstanding people. Give them a look and let me know how they stack up on the ammo prices.

98 Posted on 10/18/1999 19:56:01 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

“Automatics have a fatal flaw for many ladies. To load the first cartridge you must pull the slide all the way back, then let it go, which chambers the first round. I’ve heard of women who were talked into buying an automatic only to find out that they didn’t have the natural strength to “rack the slide” and no-one taught them a technique to be able to do so. Only the most frail women cannot be taught to wrack an auto’s slide or to develop the strenght to do it. But it takes a bit of practice. Buying a revolver means you don’t even have to consider this potential problem.”

This lady has a Mini Glock 40 cal and I don’t have a problem with the slide.. and the trigger is real easy. Just got my laser sights last week. AWESOME!

In Texas when you go for your concealed carry license if you qualify with a Semi Automatic you can shoot either but if you qualify with a revolver that’s all you can carry..

99 Posted on 10/18/1999 20:07:16 PDT by Texas Mom
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To: Texas Mom

In Texas when you go for your concealed carry license if you qualify with a Semi Automatic you can shoot either but if you qualify with a revolver that’s all you can carry.

That’s important stuff to know for all the Texas FReepers who have a CCW permit. Thanks for putting it out.

100 Posted on 10/18/1999 20:11:04 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: SevenDaysInMay

Muzzle flashes and sound will fade until insignificant.

The secret is to never hear the sound of the firearm. After the second day on the army firing range my concentration was such that I never hear the M1 go off. All I ever heard was the clack of the bolt afterwards.

101 Posted on 10/18/1999 20:29:27 PDT by RLK
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To: ForceTen

I recently equipped my Mrs. with the AMT Back-up. 380cal Double action only, auto loader. Means long trigger pull, no safety to release and safe carry with one in the tube. Holds six total and can be fired from within the pocket as there is no exposed hemmer to snag. Many LEOs carry this as (grin) their backup gun. Durable weapon and gaining skill is fairly cheap. Some outstanding home defense rounds are available from Cor-Bon. To me this beats the heck out of a wheel gun with few of the problems associated with most semi-autos.

102 Posted on 10/18/1999 20:31:24 PDT by theneanderthal (psmallwood@(no freakin’ spam)cybertron.com)
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To: tangofox

Yeah – this is a good point… Although it doesn’t make the magazine round limitations any easier to swallow. You are totally correct about far too many police officers (and other law enforcement agencies and gestapos in general) – they are NOT very well practiced with their firearms.

I think it was Jeff Cooper that said, “You are no more armed because you have possession of a firearm than you are a musician because you own a piano.”

That one’s a keeper! Thanks for a great point!!!

103 Posted on 10/18/1999 20:58:59 PDT by TS2000 (TruthSeeker2000@Yahoo.com)
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To: TS2000

For the record, my favorite handgun is my customized, stainless Springfield Armory M1911A1. What a sweet gun! I used to have an “assault rifle” with a ludicrous number of high-capacity magazines, but they all dissolved in the rain. (Mondo tragedy.)

Just trying to point out that, for all the hype about autos, novices that shoot my handguns do best with my Taurus revolver, and this holds true with my circle of friends, as well.

104 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:24:23 PDT by tangofox
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To: Red Redwine

<<–Shotguns are only reliably deadly from a self-defense standpoint at point-blank range.–

“A technical thing here. “Point-blank” range is the distance to which the sights don’t need adjustment to hit the target. It’s a distance that’s short enough so that bullet drop, due to gravity, doesn’t have to be taken into account in aiming. It would be at least 100 yards for most centerfire rifle calibers. I haven’t heard the concept used much for shotguns, but I believe it would probably be at least 40 yards or so depending on the load.

I think you may have meant “muzzle contact” range. That would be a short distance, where the muzzle of the gun is either in contact with the target or almost in contact, within inches.”>>

Sounds like you’re correct there–what you call “muzzle contact” range is what I meant. I’ve always interpreted ‘point blank range’ to mean the distance across a room, from news reports and the like, but maybe it’s one of those terms like “gun” (instead of “firearm”) or “20 round clip” that’s a commonly used malapropism.

“I’ve read that the smaller sizes of shot, birdshot, will produce an ugly but superficial wound, because the shot doesn’t penetrate very much. That would go along with what you’re talking about. Would you happen to know what sizes of shot were involved in the cases you’ve seen? The larger sizes of shot, buckshot, should have more penetration due to their greater mass. I’ve further read that #1 buckshot gives the best combination of penetration and pellet count for a 12 gauge load for a personal defense situation. Fortunately, I’ve never had to verify that.”

Well, the cases in the field where I’ve seen ambulatory (up and walking) patients with shotgun pellet wounds were not ones where I got a chance to measure the pellets. I have, however, seen several cases of cluster wounds from what looked like #1 buck or larger in the back and mid-torso that didn’t seem to have much effect on the victims. I am only guessing from the size of the holes, which were at least .25 caliber or better in diameter. I’ve found that most gunshot wounds in fleshy areas of the body are *smaller* in diameter than the actual slugs that cause them, not larger, as Hollywood would lead us to expect.

The most memorable situation like this that shook me up was when I saw a fellow standing there pointing at his belly with three large pellet wounds in his UPPER ABDOMEN region, near the sternum, and carrying on a lucid conversation with me and the police officers on the scene. The holes looked as if they came from a blast of 00 buckshot. This obviously made a big impression on me personally, especially since I was a gun buff at the time.

As far as what you’re saying about bird shot, I would say that at muzzle contact range, as I suggested before, it can be very deadly. I watched an autopsy with a victim of what looked like an up-close .20 gauge shotgun wound, and the forensics doctor pulled out what was left of his heart and held it in the palm of his hand. It had been almost completely destroyed–over half of it was disintegrated.

My unscientific opinion, as a person who has just casually observed GSWs, is that any shotgun load at muzzle contact range can be extremely deadly, but with every yard of distance from the muzzle, its penetration power drops off dramatically, and the size of the pellet in question does not change the fact that it drops off. If I were stuck with a 12 gauge shotgun for self-defense, but could choose my ammunition, I would NEVER load it with anything but deer slugs.

105 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:24:32 PDT by CartoonK
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To: Lurker

I think you’re crazy!

For home defense there is only one weapon that will do…

I use a trusty Anti-tank missile. and for when there’s more than one I use a coffee can full of rusty nails and gun powder. Of course last time an intruder broke in my house I lost a leg and a kidney!

106 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:34:14 PDT by SC2000 (bbenton1@mailexcite.com)
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To: tangofox

Geez, are you maniacs STILL talking about guns?

LOL

107 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:35:21 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Great job Lurker! I would add that the bear was a black bear, and that you can get rifled barrels for shotguns. I don’t promote remington 870’s, even though I think that they’re the best shotgun for the money, you won’t hear me promoting the remington 870’s, I just don’t like promoting things like the remington 870

I love how you encourage people to purchase a .22 long rifle. What better round is there? These things are inexpensive to shoot, and you can carry a zillion rounds.

Be safe Lurker, and peace to your house.

108 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:38:39 PDT by tommygun7 (tommygun@imsnet.net)
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To: Lurker

Geez, are you maniacs STILL talking about guns?

Guns are one of the few topics I’ll rattle someone’s ear off about. And, when I’m done telling y’all my outrageous stories, I’ll tell ’em again. LOL!

109 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:41:33 PDT by tangofox
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To: Lurker

and then go find a private party to purchase what you want so there is no paper trail to you.

it may take longer but you probably won’t get a knock on your door.

110 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:46:41 PDT by scott91 (scott91@home.com)
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To: tommygun7

Being a real Mossberg 500 fan, I know how you feel. I just can’t bring myself to actively promote a shotgun which holds 6 rounds of 12 guage ammo, has that really sweet 18 inch barrel, AND THE GHOST RING SIGHTS, all right from the factory for 275.00 dollars.

I just wouldn’t feel right pointing out that both the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marines use MOSSBERG shotguns.

I completely agree with you about folks who just can’t stop saying “Mossberg” in the same sentence as “shotgun”. They are the most annoying sort…

Peace to your house as well my friend.

Regards,

111 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:50:50 PDT by Lurker
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To: tangofox

So what do you think about my advice?

I think I done pretty good.

I stand by my assertions here.

The shotgun is for ranges from 0 to 50 yards, although under ideal circumstances you can use it to 100 yards.

The revolver is for ranges from 0 to 100 yards. You and I both love our semis, but I have to admit that for longer range pistol shots, the revolver gets the nod every time.

Now the rifle.

I know I ticked some folks off by leaving the ARs, the AKs, the FN’s, the Garands, and the SKS types off the list but I was writing this article for the “novice” gun buyers.

If the excrement hits the rotating oscillation unit, I would far prefer to have a bunch of folks who were competent in the use of .30 caliber bolt action rifles on my side than almost any number of people who bought high dollar “assault rifles” and never practiced with them.

Regards,

112 Posted on 10/18/1999 21:59:55 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Another great piece, Lurker.

I agree with your opinions. Around huntin’ season here, K-Mart sells Mossberg 500’s for about $175.00 or so. (That’s with a 28-inch barrel with modified Accu-choke.) It’s a great deal, and we should all support Rosie O’Donnell by purchasing guns from her favorite store.

I prefer reloads for hunting, so I can load premium bullets without paying premium prices. For defense, factory loads are a must in today’s legal climate.

113 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:14:33 PDT by tangofox
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To: tangofox

“It’s a great deal, and we should all support Rosie O’Donnell by purchasing guns from her favorite store.”

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Regards,

114 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:19:36 PDT by Lurker
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To: tangofox

Oh also, the Remington 700 ADL in .308 or 30.06 is listed for 375.00 at my local Wal Mart, but I may just drop by the nearest Super K and see what kind of a deal they have. LOL

Something really funny came in the mail the other day. The advertising brochure for my local Super K Mart. They listed K Mart brand .22 caliber ammunition at .80 a box.

I still have the coupon. 8.00 per thousand seems like a hell of a deal to me. LOL!

Think I will go stock up and send a nice letter of thanks to Rosie when I get home.

Regards,

115 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:24:41 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Twisted, I mean, great minds think alike.

What a coincidence. I bought a Remington 700 ADL in 7mm Magnum from Wal-Mart a few years back. $.80 for a box of .22 LR shells? That’s great; I’ll have to swing by the Rosie Store and get some.

116 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:33:39 PDT by tangofox
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To: wastoute

NOT A BAD PLAN! i can’t tell you how many novices i’ve trained over the last 30-odd years.

my choice for novices is: if money’s no object the remington stainless marine 12guage pump or it’s near-twin the stainless police (8 round mag!) IF $ are a problem, the shotgun to buy is any good used winchester, remington, ithaca, mossburg pumpgun that you can find. then invest in a $2.00 hacksaw with a good blade and cut it down to 18 1/4 inch barral- that gives you a short light fast swinging prowler-fouler! load it with low-base 7 1/2 for urban defense, with #4 buck as a backup- for rural use, where ranges tend to be longer use the #4 buck all the time.cost for the shotgun, hacksaw and shells , probably just shy of $150.00- there also seems to be an unending supply of police riotguns as trade-ins that shoot just fine out there at about the same $150.00.

now for the handgun- my choice for a beginner is the Smith & Wesson model 65, which was designed for the okla. state patrol(darn near breakproof)- cheap too, new about $200.00 and made of stainless steel. NOT MANY BUCKS- any good condition 38spl or 357mag by S&W, COLT, RUGER or TAURUS, again lots of perfectly good PD trade-ins around for $100-150.00 (lots)

now for the rifle-my last purchase, unless you are intrested in squirrel/rabbit hunting or plinking. my choice for the beginner is the venerable 30-30 by either winchester or marlin. these things never seem to wear out either, so the supply of them used is good at about $100-150.00 too. look around, you DO NOT need to spend $1000, to get a perfectly usable rifle!

my guess is you can outfit youself with good quality used revolver, shotgun and 30-30 for about $450-500 and even be able to start with a couple of boxes of each caliber ammo.

that’s my beginner’s advice from an oldtime, but alive country cop.

117 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:35:44 PDT by stand watie
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To: Lurker

Your post was well thought out but everyone should keep in mind their own personal requirements. An example is my first gun, other than my .22 that I grew up with and my “deer rifle” Russian NGAT rifle I bought from Sears for $20 before 1968 when a teenager could walk in Sears and pay for it with his own money with no paperwork and carry it home down mainstreet with no hassles. My first gun as an adult was a Ruger Security 6 in 357 caliber. I love that gun, but when my daughter was born, I had to make a decision because a toddler could just pick it up and pull the trigger. I chose a Colt .45ACP because I could leave it loaded with the chamber empty and know my daughter couldn’t pull the slide back. I don’t like revolvers around kids. The trigger locks just defeat the purpose of having the gun for self defence.

My daughter is now 15 and is quite a good shot with the .45, and can load it herself, as can my wife. I just would have worried all these years with neighborhood kids running in and out of the house with a loaded wheel gun where they might find it. My daughter was taught at eight how to handle guns safely, and has never given me a minutes worry, but what about her friends whoose parents think guns are evil and haven’t taught their children anything.

Home defence is a personal thing, and I agree that a shotgun may not be right for everyone. For me, pistol shooting is easy, but for some, they seem to have trouble hitting the target. I’ve even seen people try to shoot one handed, and then say they can’t hit anything with a pistol….duh!. TV has just about destroyed this country.

118 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:41:53 PDT by chuckles
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To: Lurker

greetings teacher- that’s what you are you know! you have done a good thing this day with this post. thanks from the dixie redman- for liberty, stand watie

119 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:45:21 PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie

You beat my budget by a considerable amount.

Thanks.

P.S. If I could have afforded the Remington Stainless Shotgun, I would have bought it. I should have put it on my list of Shotguns. Thanks for pointing that one up. It’s a real bargain.

120 Posted on 10/18/1999 22:45:26 PDT by Lurker
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To: tangofox

Believe it or not, the one thing I lack is a good bolt action rifle.

My local Super K is more than willing to order me a Remington 700, but I am torn.

Do I give them my money and therefor acknowledge that I somehow agree with them having Rosie as their spokesman?

Or, do I take the more subtle and isidious tack, and make them order me what I want and thereby stick it up the rather substantial Ms. O’Donnells backside?

This situation almost perfectly defines the word “irony” dont you think?

BTW, Mrs. Lurker nailed a 6-1/2 pound bass fishing tonite. The freaking thing was huge. She caught it on a buzz bait while we were fishing one of the water hazards on the golf course she works at. I have witnesses, and I have a picture so I can prove it.

I caught a couple of 4 pound fish, and one over 5 pounds.

That was after we hit the gun range and both blew up 200 rounds each.

Life just doesn’t get any better than this…..

Regards,

121 Posted on 10/18/1999 23:02:09 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Excellent piece! Written like a loving, cool, older brother.

122 Posted on 10/18/1999 23:16:16 PDT by Nephi
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To: CartoonK

Well CartoonK, let me offer my 25 years as a big game hunter and guide and 4 years as a Marine Recon Infantryman and say you are full of cat feces. My son and all the other guides on the King Salmon river in AK carry 12 guage pump pistol grip shotguns to defend against AK Grizzlies and Browns, and until you have faced one at close range, you have never felt a full Depends! To compare the effect of a 12 guage with a slug or 00 buck to a .22 is simply ignorance.

123 Posted on 10/18/1999 23:19:49 PDT by Claymoremind
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To: Lurker

Go with whomever has the lowest prices, IMO. You can always send K-Mart a protest letter or something.

Please give the Mrs. my congratulations. Sounds like the two of you are having a great time; keep it up.

I had to put some food out for the possums, since there wasn’t any outside the door, and one was standing out there looking hungry. For full explanation, see e-mail tomorrow. Catch you later.

124 Posted on 10/18/1999 23:24:35 PDT by tangofox
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To: Claymoremind

—My son and all the other guides on the King Salmon river in AK carry 12 guage pump pistol grip shotguns to defend against AK Grizzlies and Browns,—

What load do they use in those? I see you mentioned the slug or 00 buck, is that the “standard” thing?

125 Posted on 10/19/1999 04:48:44 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: ForceTen

—What would be your recommendation for a woman?—

I know of women who have gotten the Taurus model 85 revolver, and been pleased with it. The weblink for that model is Taurus 85. It’s a compact 5 shot revolver in .38 special. The price seems reasonable. The suggested price is only a guide, the actual price at a dealer should be less. That’ll be true in general for most guns.

But really, the only way to find a suitable gun is to shop for it, and check out what’s available. I’m sorry to have to tell you that, because I know how women hate shopping. 😉 Do take a look at revolvers.

—Something that is very accurate but does not require extensive practice to use, but is effective.—

Any revolver or pistol from a reputable manufacturer should be accurate enough for a personal defense situation such as you described. If a particular gun is not, it’s defective and should be returned for service. Try the gun at a shooting range soon after you buy it to check its performance. The .38 Special is effective for personal defense, although the specific choice of ammunition will make a difference.

There’s a great deal of argument and controversy about which ammunition is “best,” not only for .38 but self-defense guns in general. Stick to the major brands and types and you’ll probably be okay. Some major brands would be Federal, Winchester, Remington, CCI/Speer and Hornady. Each of those companies offers what they call self-defense ammunition. Those would be Federal Hydra-Shok, Winchester SXT, Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, and Hornady XTP. Those are expensive loads, but for practice you can use the cheapest stuff on the shelf. Shoot at least a few shots with the expensive kind to be sure the gun handles it properly.

There is no magic type of ammo, regardless of what some company’s advertising says. To be sure of stopping an attacker quickly, the bullet needs to hit something vital — the heart, the spinal column, or a major artery. Aim for the upper torso area. Shot placement is far more important than the particular kind of ammunition, as long as the ammunition is any good at all.

A person can practice a lot with a revolver without firing it. That’s also true of other kinds of guns, but it’s more convenient with a double-action revolver. It’s called dry firing: simply take the unloaded gun, aim it at a spot and pull the trigger. Be double-dang sure and absolutely certain the gun is unloaded. Check it and then check it again. Even at that, be sure the target spot is in a location where no personal injury could result if the gun did fire. Dry firing provides practice in holding the gun steady, sight alignment and trigger control. It’s no substitute for actual practice with ammo, but it’s good for some of the basic technique of shooting. It’s an excellent way to become familiar with the overall feel of the gun. That by itself will not make for accurate shooting, however.

Dry firing is usually okay, but check the owner’s manual for what the manufacturer recommends for a particular gun.

There are also pistols that use a Double-Action-Only, DAO, type of mechanism, and they can be dry fired the same as a revolver.

126 Posted on 10/19/1999 07:04:49 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Lurker

don’t waste your money at k-mart unless you just HAVE to have a new one. i bought my model 700BDL-LH for $200 from the origional owner, in as new condition in ought-6. there seem to be lots of mod700s in all the gunshows and fleamarkets around here, going begging for new owners.

am looking for a LH in .270, but can’t find one. (yep, i’m not only tighter than dick’s hatband- but a southpaw as well.- thus my love of ithaca and old-model remington shotguns)

also look around for an old model 4X bausch & lomb scope (40mm objectice lens)- these things are bright- they are the poachers friend (and anything that will work for poachers for nite shooting, obviously will work fine for militia/defense use)

127 Posted on 10/19/1999 07:33:03 PDT by stand watie
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To: all

dixie bump

128 Posted on 10/19/1999 13:41:52 PDT by stand watie
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To: ForceTen

May I suggest taking an NRA basic course, pistol, rifle or shotgun. They all include range time and most NRA instructors have an impressive collection of firearms they will let you shoot. All for around 50 to 80 bucks.

129 Posted on 10/19/1999 16:59:24 PDT by gc4nra (darkjedirc@jps.net)
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To: theneanderthal

Thanks for the information. I will check it out. This was just the information I needed and appreciate your response.

130 Posted on 10/19/1999 19:04:13 PDT by ForceTen (force10partners@worldnet.att.net)
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To: Willie Green

how about some help here ? i looked at a mossberg 12ga. 18 &20in. can either shoot a slug shot and what about range?would a shotgun with interchangable barrels be bettor. also,sks- carbine or full length barrel,which would be bettor. tarrus 357 2in. barrel or a tarrus/cal-tech 9mm 10 shot mag. 2in. barrel.I’m on a real tight budget,so can’t afford bettor than this.ANY Help!

131 Posted on 10/19/1999 19:29:10 PDT by trucker dude (rbap3579@prodigy.net)
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To: ForceTen

Here’s the web page for the AMT Backup that theneanderthal mentioned.

AMT .380 Backup

AMT made an earlier, somewhat similar gun with a single-action mechanism. Do not get that one. There were numerous complaints about it. A few of the earlier ones might still be around. But as far as I know this current version, as shown on the web page, is a good gun. Mine has been. 🙂 My memory is fuzzy on the price, but I think I paid around $260 or $270 for it. Not at all sure of that.

If they’re still using the plastic followers, the magazines can be easily modified to hold an extra round.

132 Posted on 10/19/1999 19:43:53 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: trucker dude

check out my #117- i’m poorer and cheaper than you! my advise is sound.

all 3 of my house guns did not cost as much as a 9mm auto pistol.

1 -12guage ithaca pumpgun (looks ugly ,shoots good), 1-38spl official police colt and a 30.06 model 700 by remington!

spent about 350 bucks on all 3 together!

2 boxes of shells for each costs about 40 bucks more, at walmart.I buy most of my ammo at garage sales!

see i told you i was cheap!

133 Posted on 10/19/1999 20:17:56 PDT by stand watie
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To: trucker dude

The Mossberg’s will shoot slugs. IMHO the longer barrel is better because the gas pressure has more time to act on the slug, giving more range (generally the short barrels are used with shot, though). Similarly, a shotgun with interchangable barrels is better yet, especially if one of the barrels is a “slug barrel” (rifled to provide better accuracy). Smooth bore is better for shot because (depending who you ask) the shot doesn’t damage the rifling and/or the rifling doesn’t deform the shot. Also, many smoothbore barrels can accomodate “chokes” which are used to adjust the pattern or spread of the shot. This does affect the “range” since a tighter pattern will deliver more ooomph at a greater distance. (Hopefully more dedicated shotgunners will correct or clarify my explanation if I’m off.)

Similarly for the SKS (or any other rifle), my personal preference would be for the longer barrel since a longer barrel theoretically will produce higher velocity (greater impact and/or range) with a given bullet. Shorter barrels are preferred by some due to more manueverable handling. Generally it’s a trade-off depending on your preference.

Taurus .357 revolver vs. 9mm semiauto is a comparison of apples and oranges. Both have advantages and disadvantages. My advice is to find some way to try them both and go with the one that suits your personal preference.

134 Posted on 10/19/1999 21:28:37 PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke

Actually my questions was to whomever was able to answer it and I thank you for your response. I have been wanting to purchase a gun for some time now, but am now strongly energized to do so. There are some things in life that need to be carefully thought out.

My cousin, who is a cop, only gave me one word of advice. He told me not buy a gun unless I am prepared to use it. You can’t hesitate when someone is advancing toward you. You have to shoot!

I have taken that advice very seriously and am now ready to shoot.

135 Posted on 10/20/1999 13:41:06 PDT by ForceTen (force10partners@worldnet.att.net)
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To: ForceTen

I’d also take a look at Ruger’s revolvers, particularly the SP-101 in .357 magnum. Like I said, for the lady, I would get a .357 magnum and put .38’s in it. If you buy a .38, then you’re locked in to that round and cannot ever shoot the .357 magnum’s through it. And there is a pretty substantial difference in the cost between the two, which may have an effect on how much you practice. And practice is absolutely a must. I was told that you ought not carry a gun for protection until you’ve put 500 rounds through it to get familiar with its operation. That may not always be possible or feasible, but it’s something to think about.

136 Posted on 10/20/1999 14:24:13 PDT by John R. (Bob) Locke (patriot_bob@yahoo.com)
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke

bttt!

137 Posted on 10/20/1999 16:58:49 PDT by gaijin
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke

—I’d also take a look at Ruger’s revolvers, particularly the SP-101 in .357 magnum.—

Here’s the web page for the SP-101.

Ruger SP101

The price has gone up again, darn it. I got one several years ago for less than $350, plus tax. Very sturdy gun, built like an anvil. The trigger’s a little unusual, but not bad. A used one should be okay, it’s built so strong there isn’t much that could hurt it.

It’s fun to shoot with full house .357 loads in the evening around sunset, when it’s getting dark. You can see a big ball of fire shoot 10 feet out the barrel, maybe farther. Even if you missed a bad guy, you’d scorch him with 3rd degree powder burns.

The .357 loads do kick pretty hard, so as a practical matter I agree with you that the use of .38 is probably better. Recoil is fairly mild with .38 +P. I believe Remington makes a reduced-power .357 load, and that might be okay too, although I haven’t tried it.

138 Posted on 10/20/1999 18:42:02 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Red Redwine

the 357 lite does work well

139 Posted on 10/20/1999 22:06:04 PDT by stand watie
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To: Red Redwine

dixie bump

140 Posted on 10/21/1999 07:44:09 PDT by stand watie
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To: All

There’s a basic safety inspection that should be done on an SKS. Make sure the firing pin moves freely. If the firing pin is stuck in the forward position, that can cause a “slam-fire,” where the gun will fire when the bolt closes, without the trigger being pulled. The gun may fire a couple shots by itself, or it may go full-auto and empty the magazine by itself. It would be a totally unexpected and highly unsafe situation. There was an instance some time ago, where a guy’s SKS slam-fired, and he was so surprised he dropped the gun. It was still shooting when he dropped it, and it shot and killed him.

The inspection is simple. Unload the gun, and pull the cocking knob back so the action locks open. Point the gun straight up. Look at the bolt face, and feel it with the tip of your finger. The firing pin should not protrude.

Then, point the gun straight down. Feel the bolt face with the tip of your finger. This time, you should feel the end of the firing pin. Tap the firing pin a few times to be sure it moves freely. You’ll feel the weight of the firing pin, but it shouldn’t feel sticky or hard to move. If there’s any question, disassemble the gun and clean it properly.

This safety check should be done on any new SKS before you buy it.

Do not — repeat do not — just put a drop of oil in the firing pin hole and think you have done something wonderful. Oil can collect dirt and grime and make the situation worse. Disassemble the gun, clean it, and do it right.

Many people have the idea about guns like the SKS and AK types that they can be tossed around, and never cleaned, and generally abused, and they will still work right. That is not true. They need care and maintenance like anything else.

Periodic maintenance is a part of gun ownership, for any gun, the same as with a car. It isn’t necessary, or even desirable, to clean a gun every single time it’s used. But guns should be cleaned fairly frequently, and when you clean one it’s important for both safety and performance to do a proper job.

141 Posted on 10/22/1999 04:36:59 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Red Redwine

you are so right

142 Posted on 10/24/1999 10:23:41 PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie

You’ve posted great advice about how people can get good guns at bargain prices. I hope everyone pays attention. It’s difficult for a newcomer to shop for a used gun, not knowing what to look for, but there are some fine values around.

143 Posted on 10/24/1999 11:44:36 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Red Redwine

1st, it’s been my expierience that managers of regular gunshops know what’s good quality and will give sound advice to beginners if they ask for it.

and since you posted sks info, give me some advice!

what sort/manfacturer/country of origion should i look for in a barreled- action for an sks “utility/truckgun” using a sporter type-fullsize Choate stock, which i found new for 29bucks?

the stock is matte black fiberglas, filled with foam,(Has a lifetime mfg guarantee against breakage/guarantee says money back any time!)which looks like an oversized m-1 carbine stock.

144 Posted on 10/24/1999 13:34:27 PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie

—… sks … what sort/manfacturer/country of origion should i look for in a barreled- action for an sks “utility/truckgun” using a sporter type-fullsize Choate stock, which i found new for 29bucks?—

Russian is the best quality. The Russian SKS is the actual military gun that was issued until the AK47 made it obsolete. The Russians kept cranking them out for military export and reserve until about the mid-’50s. The Russian SKS is on the BATF Curio & Relic list, which means you can have the military configuration, with the bayonet. If you want a bayonet on your truck gun. The prices just keep going up. You’ll be lucky to find a Russian SKS for less than $300 now. If you want to shell out the bucks for a Russian one, it’s not likely you’d lose money on the deal.

The Chinese ones are generally okay. They get criticized for quality, but lots of people have put lots of ammo through a Chinese SKS with no problem. They’re manufactured as a consumer item, so no bayonet allowed. With careful shopping you may find a Chinese SKS for less than $200, but they’re getting pricey too. One thing to watch out for, is that some of the Chinese had pinned barrels instead of threaded barrels. There were even stories that they left the pins out of a few of them. Oops.

For a truck gun……… oh, I’d say go for the Chinese, the regular version. Give it a close inspection. You can get years of good service out of a Chinese one, and accuracy depends more on the particular gun than the manufacturer.

I’ve heard there are some Romanian SKS’s around, but have never seen one and don’t know anything about them.

145 Posted on 10/24/1999 19:47:14 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Red Redwine

THERE’S LOTS OF BARRELED ACTIONS AROUND HERE FROM RUSSIA FOR ABOUT 40-50 BUCKS- NO STOCK OR ANYTHING-OR MORE COMMONLY A BADLY CRACKED ONE- I’M GOING TO CUT THE BARREL DOWN & PUT ON A WILLIAMS FRONT SIGHT OR APISTOL SCOPE ON. GOT ONE OF THOSE TOO, KICKING AROUND SOMEPLACE AT THE HOUSE.THANKS, STAND WATIE

146 Posted on 10/24/1999 20:17:51 PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie

—THERE’S LOTS OF BARRELED ACTIONS AROUND HERE FROM RUSSIA FOR ABOUT 40-50 BUCKS

Well, I never see those around here, doggone it. All I’ve found in this area are the complete guns set up for retail. But maybe I haven’t looked hard enough. Sounds like you’ve got a good plan. If you can put Russian SKS’s together for less than a hundred bucks, you could just about go into business. 🙂

147 Posted on 10/25/1999 08:01:02 PDT by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Red Redwine

not really intrested in going into business, but if you’re ever in the DC area, when there’s a gunshow look around. seems there’s lots of barraledactions, but no cheap complete ones

148 Posted on 10/25/1999 08:58:13 PDT by stand watie
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To: all

dixie bump bttt

149 Posted on 10/26/1999 15:25:19 PDT by stand watie
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To: Red Redwine

dixie bump

150 Posted on 10/27/1999 07:54:57 PDT by stand watie
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To: stand watie

Bookmarking.

151 Posted on 11/05/1999 22:23:10 PST by Lurker
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To: Claymoremind

My personal fav.

The Mossberg Persuader is now available with the Ghost Ring sights with an 18 and something inch barrel for less than 300.00 US dollars.

Buy it.

Regards,

152 Posted on 11/05/1999 22:34:57 PST by Lurker
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To: mcmuffin

Your welcome, and I am very happy you found my suggestions useful.

Regards,

153 Posted on 11/05/1999 22:41:37 PST by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Great post! It seems that every gun owner has his/her favorites with plenty of good advice thrown in for good measure. One thing is missing though.

FOR THE BEGINNER!
You have read this thread with it’s bounty of great information and bought your first gun. You have even shelled out for the cleaning kit. You have four or five boxes of ammo, and you head for the range.
STOP!
You will have a lousy time. You forgot your hearing protection and eye protection. After six rounds your ears will be ringing (MUCH worse if you use an indoor range!) and you may injure your eyes. For about $10 you can buy a reasonably good set of earmuffs, and some amber shooting glasses can be had for another $15 or so. If you remember these two items, you will have a much more positive experience, and after the safety drills, you can concentrate on the wealth of good advice you’ve read here.

Good shooting!

P.S. Don’t forget the same protection for all your friends that come with you. You need ear protection even if you are not the one shooting.

From someone who’s been there and done that.

154 Posted on 11/06/1999 00:02:54 PST by Wingy (I.am@my.wits.end.com)
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To: Lurker

Winchester Model 1300 Defender…

Composite-stocked models feature a full eight shot total capacity with 2 3/4″ loads. Choose full stock or pistol grip only version. The dull black military spec polymer is extremely durable. All metal surfaces are non-glare. The 18″ barrel completes the package. Also available in a 20 gauge version, ideal for women and smaller adults.
SRP= $305

Next on my list. 🙂

155 Posted on 11/06/1999 00:31:19 PST by CitizenX
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To: Lurker

I have been shooting handguns for 40 years. I won the firearms trophy in the police academy against some very good ex-Chicago cops.

I am so accustomed to handguns that I shot the clock off the wall in the day room at the County Jail. I hit what I was aiming at anyhow! [Forgot about the round in the chamber of my old 1911A1.]

156 Posted on 11/06/1999 00:40:28 PST by Chapita
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To: Claymoremind

“let me offer my 25 years as a big game hunter and guide”

Well, hey, how about offering me some advice on where I can go big-game hunting without having to take out a second mortgage?

(Nothing like bumming a little free advice from a pro in a social context. And the pros you impose on never mind. Much.)

157 Posted on 11/06/1999 05:19:00 PST by dsc
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To: Wingy

what’s that you say- I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

seriously, good point!

158 Posted on 11/06/1999 06:27:49 PST by stand watie
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To: Chapita

ex-county mountie bump- i’ll bet you got a few days of un-planned leave!

159 Posted on 11/06/1999 06:31:14 PST by stand watie
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To: stand watie

DANG! Wanna get “it goin'”, just start a “gun Thread”- Well, for the women’s sake, got a SP101, and altho its 357, they handle it VERY WELL.

160 Posted on 11/06/1999 06:40:32 PST by litehaus (lhpt@aol.com)
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To: litehaus

dixie bump

161 Posted on 11/06/1999 06:48:55 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

Since this thread has a life all its own, this is a reminder to all.

Each of you, novice and the deaf, powder burned, leaders, please get a copy of Massad Ayoob’s book “IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME – The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection” for yourself or someone you care about. I do not know Mr. Ayoob, nor do I monetarily benefit from his book sales.

This short read (130 pages) will clarify the reality of gun use in this thread’s context. Whether you choose a .22 LR, a .45-70, or 12 G. 3″ magnum, you will enter a new world through a one-way door if you even “display” the weapon.

Take care. You have 54 shopping days ’till Y2Kmas.

162 Posted on 11/06/1999 07:29:56 PST by SevenDaysInMay
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To: SevenDaysInMay

YES-THOUGH I WOULD SAY MR. AYOOB’S ADVICE IS PROBABLY NOT AS RELEVANT IN MOST CONSERVATIVE STATES AS IT MIGHT BE- FOR EXAMPLE,IN MY HOMESTATE IT is legal TO SHOOT BURGLARS AFTER DARK! don’t try that in a lot of states, where freedom is not as important as criminal’s rights!

163 Posted on 11/06/1999 10:31:33 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

NRA LIFER BUMP TO YA’LL-you’ve performed a good public service doing this article-i’ve sent numerous beginners over to FR and this thread for the sound advice posted by you and others! THANKS!

164 Posted on 11/06/1999 10:41:19 PST by stand watie
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To: stand watie

Yep! Three without pay! Ha! Ha! And I quit teaching the public firearms safety!

Everybody should take a look at the mini-revolvers by North American arms! Beats hell out of a box cutter!

165 Posted on 11/06/1999 11:42:49 PST by Chapita
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To: Chapita

i do NOT like or trust them- i’ve seen one blow up on the range at glynco, nearly removing 3 fingers of an BATF guy’s hand. couldn’t have happened to a nicer agency.

166 Posted on 11/06/1999 11:48:06 PST by stand watie
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To: all

bump for dixie

167 Posted on 11/06/1999 19:41:27 PST by stand watie
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To: stand watie

“The eyes of Texas are upon you”?

168 Posted on 11/06/1999 20:18:14 PST by SevenDaysInMay
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To: SevenDaysInMay

yep- camp county, texas bump

169 Posted on 11/06/1999 20:24:02 PST by stand watie
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To: SevenDaysInMay

dixie bump

170 Posted on 11/10/1999 20:55:43 PST by stand watie
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To: stand watie

Thanks.

171 Posted on 11/10/1999 21:03:06 PST by Lurker
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To: Lurker

you’re welcome

172 Posted on 11/11/1999 07:18:48 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

bump

173 Posted on 11/16/1999 11:31:41 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

dixie freedom bump bttt

174 Posted on 11/21/1999 12:36:55 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

dixie bump

175 Posted on 11/21/1999 12:48:05 PST by stand watie
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To: Lurker

I think I can agree with this entire article…it is well reasoned, sound from most points of view including economics, and even tactics. A shotgun is fine for the stated reasons. So is a revolver. The .308 is a NATO standard cal and thus available everywhere. I might opt for a lever action .30-30 but I would be merely quibbling.

However, the very FIRST thing which should have been mentioned is that a first time gun buyer should be properly TRAINED BY AN NRA CERTIFIED FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR like myself prior to making any sort of purchase!!! I don’t care, pistol, rifle or shotgun. Recreational, hunting, plinking self defense or defense of the Republic…you need training!!! Then, your instructor can help with the actual purchase and it should be done at a gun show for a better deal.

176 Posted on 11/21/1999 12:58:26 PST by GunsUp!
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To: TS2000

Try reloading a revolver as a novice under life or death extreme pressure. EVEN from a speed loader. try and figure out WHY your gun isn’t going “bang” under similar circumstances…even a stovepipe jam will become an impossible mission under such pressure.

I STRONGLY urge you to join the International Defensive Pistol Assoc (IDPA) and begin to learn actual combat/self defense tactics. Once you do, you’ll see the wisdom of my comments. The great thing about IDPA is that they usually have a shotgun and a rifle stage during each match. Nothing like realistic practice BEFORE the real thing! I’m a former infantry captain and an NRA Instructor, and this is the FIRST thing that comes closest to reality I’ve seen yet! Many scenarios are based on actual shooting incidents.

177 Posted on 11/21/1999 13:42:23 PST by GunsUp!
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To: Lurker

I’ll take an M-60 over a Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) anyday. Just like any piece of military ordinance, EVERYTHING is maintenance! A well maintained ’60 will sing better than Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music!

178 Posted on 11/21/1999 13:46:46 PST by GunsUp!
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To: GunsUp!

Thanks for the comments. I should indeed have addressed the training issue more closely.

We will continue to disagree about the M-60….LOL.

Regards,

179 Posted on 11/21/1999 16:14:27 PST by Lurker
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To: Lurker

let me put my 2 cents worth in for the m2hb 50 cal!

180 Posted on 11/22/1999 18:29:09 PST by stand watie
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To: all

dixie bump

181 Posted on 11/26/1999 07:45:22 PST by stand watie
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To: JohnYankeeCmpsr

Right on! I’d never part with my Win 30-30 lever. I’ve got lotsa guns but a favorite use for each. My advice to all gun owners is grab all the ammo you can get your hands on. It will never go to waste but I have a feeling that the next wave of gun control will be to eliminate sources for some ammo or tax it extremely heavily. I guess they could make us submit to background checks for that too?! Get all you can afford – take out a loan if you have to!!!

182 Posted on 11/26/1999 08:15:56 PST by waonkon
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To: Lurker, ~Kim4VRWC’s~

Here it is Kim!

183 Posted on 02/22/2000 15:46:44 PST by technochick99
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To: waonkon, Lurker and all

Good point, but the Los Angelenos should also consider obtaining re-loading equipment while they can.

This news from: Dillon Precision

re Los Angeles City proposed ban on reloading equipment”

The meeting was held Monday Dec 6, 1999 at

City of Los Angeles Public Safety Committee Meeting

This is the copy.

Ordinance Number 99-1581

Key provisions:

No person shall purchase, sell, give or otherwise transfer ownership of any firearm ammunition whether assembled cartridges or component parts of cartridges.

No person shall purchase, sell, give or otherwise transfer ownership of any firearm ammunition loading device.

The gun-grabbers have found a new way to take away your rights! These bureaucrats are trying to sneak around state and federal laws by denying YOU ammunition and reloading components.

First, you can’t get any ammunition at all. You can’t buy it, you can’t borrow it and you can’t make it. You’d better not have any reloading components, such as bullets, primers or powder in the City of Los Angeles, or you become one of the bad-guys. Yup, you could wind up in a jail cell with the real bad-guys because you overlooked that spent cartridge case under the sofa.

I am reminded of the hapless traveller who crossed the border into Mexico with a box of .22s and spents weeks in jail. How would the same traveller fare in Los Angeles? The thought is frightening. Sadly, an empty cartidge case that would cause a shrug of the shoulders south of the border, could send you to jail in Los Angeles. Is it possible, in the land of the free, to envy the rights of citizens in Mexico?

Finally, you can kiss your Dillon goodbye. Oh, they’ll let you keep it for awhile, but it won’t do much good without any reloading components. But when you run out of bullets, primers, powder and brass, don’t even consider giving it to your brother in Iowa, because that would be breaking the law. I suppose you could create a new table lamp with your Dillon, because that’s about all the law will let you do. On the one hand, a Dillon Lamp would be rather ugly, but on the other, it’s a sure bet that they won’t let you keep your Dillon around long enough for you to notice.

If this ordinance passes the “Safety Committee”, it will go to the full city council for a vote. I urge you to act now, in the name of sanity, to show these bureaucrats that responsible gun owners care about their rights (especially the right to vote).

Let your voice be heard!

I’ve been unable to locate any outcome from this hearing. Does anyone have further information?

184 Posted on 02/22/2000 16:18:27 PST by Covenantor
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To: technochick99/Lurker

Thanks a bunch Techno!! 🙂

Lurker, you might remember how much I love yours posts..so much so that you allowed me to copy and paste it on one of my webpages giving you and free republic credit. Do you mind if I do so with this thread.. I’m also going to use info from Thread #2. My goal is to have the Second Amendment Sisters website link to it.

185 Posted on 02/22/2000 16:22:20 PST by ~Kim4VRWC’s~ (sr97@hotmail.com)
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To: Lurker

After reading the posts I noticed one thing left out. While you still can, a person should purchase as many magazines for their rifle or pistol. If you have bought a revolver you should purchase several speed loaders. For those who have purchased M-1 Garands, you need a quantity of en bloc clips. For those who have old military bolt action rifles you need a quantity of stripper clips. Also a person should purchase slings for their rifles and shotguns. For your pistols you should purchase holsters and magazines or speed loader holders. For your rifle you need several magazine holders. Waterproof ones would be great, such as East German mag holders for the AK-47/74. Also a cleaning kit should be purchased with the tools to clean all the firearms you may have. If available or applicable one should purchase flash hiders and/or muzzle brakes. Tritium sights would also be a nice addition although not required. And while we are talking needed supplies, a flashlght would be a good idea. One other item which is not a firearm but is a good idea to have is a good pair of boots.

My personal preference in firearms are: an AK-47(totally reliable and easy to maintain in the field), 12Ga. pump shotgun(I like the Mossberg 890/9 shot capacity), .45 Auto Government model(easy to get parts for and reliable if you work out any problems before you take it into the field), 9mm Taurus-because it is cheaper than the Beretta and has tighter tolerances and therefore technically more accurate; also totally jam proof-VERY important!, .357 magnum for the reasons mentioned by previous Freepers. For a basic cheap rifle, I would prefer any Mauser action, 1896 or 1898 models. The Swedish Mauser is one of the best, the workmanship is beyond anything you will see today. A Kar-98 is also good. The Springfield 1903 is another good choice. For ammo storage a person should think about buying several ammo cans. The .30 cal ammo cans can be purchased very cheaply and they have a rubber seal to prevent damage from moisture. Make sure you label them so you do not have to open them to see if it is the right ammo. A small point, but it could make a difference sometime.

IMO, a person should avoid uncommon calibers because you may have problems resuppling yourself with ammo and you will have problems sharing your ammo and vice versa. Common calibers are IMO, 30.06, .308, .30 carbine, 9mm, 45 ACP, .357/.38, .223, 7.62X39mm, .380ACP. These are what I consider common as they are available everywhere. If it is possible you should try to get as much steel core ammo as you can. This is very important as you may need something to penetrate a barrier. That is about all the comments I have for now.

Regards,
CATO

186 Posted on 02/22/2000 17:44:23 PST by Cato
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To: Lurker

I forgot something from my last post. I think a SKS is a perfectly fine firearm. Like the Ak-47 it is totally reliable and very affordable. It also fires the same round as the AK-47. It is a little rough but it does the trick and parts are readily available. Don’t forget to purchase the accessories, like stripper clips and ammo holders. Refitting it with a custom stock makes it more comfortable to fire for us larger Caucasions. Check out RheinHart-Fagen(purchased by MidWay Reloading) for the best stocks.

CATO

187 Posted on 02/22/2000 18:04:39 PST by Cato
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To: Cato

A gun dealer sez: Personally, I don’t like the SKS, as the detachable mags are a pain and don’t hold as many rounds as they’re supposed to. I found it’s worth it to spend the extra $100 and get the AK variant. I love my AK, and take it shooting every chance I get. As far as cost goes, I wanted to emphasize that like so much else in life, you get what you pay for. The Hi-Point 9mm might seem like a real bargain at $125, but how much of a bargain will it be when the frame cracks after 500 rounds? Likewise beware of Lorcin, Phoenix Arms, Sundance, Daewoo, etc. I would avoid Marlin .22s like the plague, ESPECIALLY the model 60. The extractor is weak in this model, and if it goes, you may as well throw the gun away. I would also avoid the Remington 522 Viper (constant jamming problems), and the new .22 Remington came out with, the model # of which I forget…(same reason). Ruger 10-22 is the way to go, for autos, maybe an older Winchester or Remington for bolts. BTW, when we purchased guns for self-defense in our pawn shop, we chose Taurus model 606s, blued, .357 mag, 2″ barrel. They were a steal at $179 new (sorry, that’s dealer cost. Y’all will have to pay a little extra), and they are double action, so a freaked-out employee will have to do naught but keep pointing and pulling the trigger. They do also have a lifetime warranty, not that I’ve ever seen a Taurus need warranty work. We load ours with the evil Black Talon rounds, now currently tough to find retail.

188 Posted on 02/22/2000 19:14:35 PST by Usurer (usurer28@hotmail.com)
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To: Lurker Lurker Lurker Lurker 🙂

Please see my post at 185 ! 🙂

189 Posted on 02/22/2000 21:28:16 PST by ~Kim4VRWC’s~
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To: ~Kim4VRWC’s~

Click on my name to go to my bookmark page…

Full of 2^nd Amendment threads. Be sure to read the thread titled “The Day I Was Shot” by Lurker, and “If you had to choose an “arsenal”….”.

190 Posted on 02/22/2000 22:18:18 PST by CitizenX
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To: CitizenX

Thank you so much..I will do that..He writes so well.

You may not be aware, that I’ve tried to keep and maintain 2nd amendmendment links from fr..here they are. One of these days after I finish working on a project for s.a.s., I’m going to update it.

I sent a frmail to lurker too. I know he’ll get the message eventually. 🙂 If he doesn’t, I may just have to go ahead and post it anyway..grin

191 Posted on 02/22/2000 22:23:21 PST by ~Kim4VRWC’s~
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To: CitizenX

Excellent bookmarks!! Thank you so much.. I love to research ..and you’ve just made my job so much easier.

192 Posted on 02/22/2000 22:24:46 PST by ~Kim4VRWC’s~
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To: ~Kim4VRWC’s~

Anytime. I am still looking for more good threads on reloading.

🙂

193 Posted on 02/22/2000 22:31:26 PST by CitizenX
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To: Cato

Cato,
Excellent posts and information! My friend wants me to get an AR-15 because he just bought one. I was considering an AK-47 though, but I’m not familiar with which brand(s), or if the parts are readily available or interchangable between different manufacturers.

The other one I was thinking about is a mini-14 but a dealer told me it’s hard to get parts because Ruger requires that the weapon be sent in for repairs. (Can’t even buy a firing pin?)

I’d value your advice. Thanks.
wonkon

194 Posted on 02/23/2000 08:20:36 PST by waonkon
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To: ~Kim4VRWC’s~

Feel free, and thank you very much for asking.

Regards,

195 Posted on 02/23/2000 20:09:26 PST by Lurker
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To: Lurker

thank you Lurker.. 🙂 xoxox

196 Posted on 02/23/2000 23:12:06 PST by ~Kim4VRWC’s~
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To: Red Redwine

Red Redwine,

I have one of those single action .380auto Backups. There is nothing wrong with these guns. You just have to remember that it is a single action auto and adjust to the way these guns work. You would carry it with round in the chamber and the safety on. It is no different than a .45 auto 1911A1. The damn thing is that some people don’t pay attention and I guess they pull the trigger with the safety off. A little practice working the safety on and off and “Not” pulling the trigger without knowing the condition your gun is in and you will have NO PROBLEMS. BTW, a single action auto has the advantage of an easy trigger pull the first time. I think this is important when you have to bring this gun into action and you need an accurate first shot.

CATO

197 Posted on 03/03/2000 22:13:02 PST by Cato
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To: Cato

All very excellent advice, I started out the same way. However, it didn’t take long until it got into my blood. I now carry an H&k 45, with a Sig 9 backup. The shotgun is an absolute, and a mossburg will due just fine, 8 rounds will do what ever must be done. I like my cowboy Winchester model 94 for heavy plinking, along with the lever action of the old 1965 marlin for the light stuff. For the more serious work I still use the 30-06 springfield 03, a little sporterized, and a Tasco world class scope for the long look. I know there are better choices, but I like it. The one point that was made in the thread earlier about the feel and fit, the absolute standard, if it doesn’t feel like an extention, then you will never be better than just a good shot. I have to be honest though, for shooting at paper, I love my Smith & Wesson model 27, got the target grips,trigger,and red ramp, a nail driver for sure. I pray I’ll never have to use any of them for defence, but in the mean time, I’m gonna keep practicing, for the sure joy and proficiency of it. Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth for what it is or isn’t worth. Interpol

198 Posted on 03/03/2000 22:50:09 PST by interpol (interpol@worldspy.com)
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To: waonkon

waonkon,

If you go with the AK and you buy a Chinese model , get “Polytechics”. The Norinco is NOT as good. Polytechnics makes the AK-47’s for the PLA. Norinco is for EXPORT. The Polytechnics will have a stainless steel lined barrel and will not corrode when you use corrosive ammo. A lot of the ammo that has come over has been corrosive and will do a number on a non-stainless steel lined barrel if you don’t clean it after you shoot. You can’t forget or it will rust on you in no time at all. BTW, I am of the understanding that the corrosive ammo has a longer shelf life. This may no longer be the case but it was true at one time. If you go with a different country of manufacture, I would go with a Bulgarian made AK. Excellent quality, even better than the Chinese models. Be very careful when purchasing an Egyption made MAADI. It is a good gun(heck all AK’s are good), but the quality is not as good as any other country of manufacture. I have also heard that the Rumanian model is of excellent quality. I would also highly recommend the East German AK’s. The Germans make very good steel. The best in the world, IMO. Swedish steel runs a close second.

When buying magazines for your AK, check out the East German ones. They are much better than the Chinese. You can get them at any gun show or you can still get them mail order through “Cheaper than Dirt”. They don’t have a sharp edge and will not cut your fingers when you are pushing rounds into the magazine. The Chinese made mags are cheap and reliable but the finish is rough and they will cut you when you are loading them unless you take care. The East Germans also have made available a EXCELLENT 4-mag waterproof magazine holder. I have one accessory that you may want to get or not. I purchased a 75 round drum magazine. They are a little ackward to carry but they are reliable and you can load them and by not winding the concentric clock spring, which feeds the rounds, you will never wear out the spring. They would be good for a semi-stationary defensive position.

Regards,
CATO

199 Posted on 03/03/2000 23:03:22 PST by Cato
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>>Automatics have a fatal flaw<<

The biggest one that doesn’t get mentioned is “limp wristing”. They depend on recoil to function properly,and if you don’t have a firm grip,they may jam after firing a shot. This can and has been a problem for men as well as women. Just because you get into the “proper” two-handed shooting stance at the gun range,it doesn’t mean you can or will do this in a emergency situation away from the range. Revolvers don’t have this problem.

As far as calibers go,I had rather see somebody with a limited budget buy a good 22 revolver they can afford to buy a TON of ammo for to practice with,than to buy a $1,000 .45ACP they never shoot.22’s may not be “sexy” or macho,but they will damn sure get the job done in a house or apartment. Besides being cheap to shoot,they are also FUN to shoot. The fun factor for a newbie is something those of us who have been shooting for a while tend to forget. Let them shoot enough to get the “bug”,and then they can spend the money for a quality 357 revolver. One preferably in stainless steel with a 4 inch barrell.

When it comes to rifle calibers,what is “best” for someone who lives in a rural area is different for what is “best” for someone living in a city. Even if you live in a rural area,a 22 rifle is something worth having. In a city,it is all you need. If you need a centerfire rifle and want a autoloader,IMHO the hands-down best buy is a FN-FAL. I see metric versions (forget the others) advertised in Shot Gun News for less than $650. This is a INCREDIBLE buy. It is true you will have to get a FFL dealer to order it for you,but this shouldn’t add too much to the cost. Surplus NATO 308 ammo for it can often be bought for $150 per case of 1,000 rounds.

What do I personally carry on a daily basis? I usually carry a 5 shot Rossi 44 Special revolver. Sometimes I carry a 1911A1 style 45. I don’t carry spare ammo for either.

200 Posted on 03/04/2000 04:50:11 PST by sneakypete
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To: ActionNewsBill

>>IMHO, this is another example of the subtle brainwashing and conditioning the media is using on an unsuspecting public.<<

You’re right,but it’s worse than that. These damn fool actually believe this crap themselves. The show you watched is a rerun,and the really ironic part is that in a later show one of the wimmin lawyers uses a pistol to kill a attacker in her apartment. No editorial comment here about how it was a good idea to have the gun,though!

201 Posted on 03/04/2000 04:56:59 PST by sneakypete
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To: village idiot

>> My husband has an antique Springfield rifle, but I’m going to use info from this thread to get another shotgun or rifle.<<

Would that happen to be a Model 1903 Springfield? If so,that is a VERY lousy,inaccurate,and unsafe gun! He should immediately pack it up and send it to me! Honest,really,for sure,no kidding. Would I lie to you?

P.S. You other guys keep out of this. I spotted it first.

202 Posted on 03/04/2000 05:27:42 PST by sneakypete
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To: Cato

I agree about the way the single-action AMT .380 operates, also the advantages of a single-action trigger in general. Nothing wrong with a single-action gun, and no argument that they’re usually more accurate in practical shooting. As with any gun, the main thing is to be well-practiced in handling it, so the person knows what he’s doing.

The complaints I mentioned, and neglected to describe, were in the area of reliability of that particular model of gun. The gun got a reputation for jamming, failure to feed or eject. But I don’t know how general those complaints were, and it’s been years since I’ve heard or read any discussion of it.

203 Posted on 03/04/2000 09:39:21 PST by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: waonkon

Two websites to check out (click or copy)–

http://web.archive.org/web/20070623040846/http://www.ar15.com/

http://web.archive.org/web/20070623040846/http://www.ak-47.net/

Both sites offer discussion forums, and lots of general info.

—The other one I was thinking about is a mini-14 but a dealer told me it’s hard to get parts because Ruger requires that the weapon be sent in for repairs. (Can’t even buy a firing pin?)—

It’s easy to get most parts for the Mini, but some have to be factory installed. The manual has a parts list and prices in the back, also the mailing address for orders. You can get a free manual from Ruger for the Mini-14. I think it has to be a written request for the manual, and I’m sure the address to write to is on their website–

http://web.archive.org/web/20070623040846/http://www.ruger-firearms.com/

Okay, yeah, I went ahead and checked, and here’s what it says–

“FREE instruction manuals for all Ruger firearms are available free upon request. Please write: Sturm, Ruger & Company; Lacey Place; Southport, CT 06490. Please specify model for which you require a manual.”

From the manual, parts that have to be factory installed are the barrel, bolt, firing pin, gas block, hammer, secondary sear, and trigger. Other parts are available by mail. The only exception would be the receiver, because it’s legally “the firearm,” so the receiver isn’t available separately.

The AK and Mini-14 are both considered to be highly reliable guns. They need reasonable care and maintenance, but are not “fussy.” Neither one has a very good reputation for accuracy, on average. Some are better than others, but a person shouldn’t get one expecting it to be a serious target rifle.

The typical AR-15 should be more accurate than the vast majority of the AK types or Mini-14s. The AR needs a little more care than the Mini or AK, tho. It’ll demand a good cleaning at least every 400 rounds, give or take, and depending on how dirty the ammo is.

Buy one of each! 🙂

204 Posted on 03/04/2000 10:31:05 PST by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Lurker

From a woman’s point of view… revolvers are good for small hands and wrists that might have trouble with the semi’s also, if she is a first shooter she may not be intimidated so much by a relvolver…. but, speaking from experience… just try to take my 9mm away from me now!

205 Posted on 03/04/2000 10:46:37 PST by D. Miles
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To: Lurker

bump

206 Posted on 03/04/2000 16:33:13 PST by D. Miles
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To: Red Redwine

I have had no feeding problems with my AMT .380 Backup single action. I have tried hardball and HP and have had no problems. I am not sure of the ammo that the people were using, but I have had No problems. I have even made up some reloads using 100gr hollow points and they work fine. One other thing about the single action Backup is that there is also a grip safety, just like the 1911A1. If you can fire one that a friend has or a gun range rents, try it out. I just don’t favor a double action auto. It is a matter of preference with me. Some people prefer double action autos and some, like myself, don’t. I have a 9mm Taurus PT-92 double action auto, but I never fire it that way. I don’t like that first round trigger pull. Like I said, it is a matter of preference.

If you get a chance to fire one you will be impressed with its’ accuracy. At a range that you will ever use this gun, 1-25 yards, you will find that it puts every round in a 3(or less) inch circle. Pretty impressive, seeing how the only sights are a trough in the slide. And the barrel is only 2 1/2″ long. If you end up buying one though, you will have to buy one used or from a dealer who has one left over, as I understand that they do not manufacture the single action auto anymore. Damn shame, IMO, that the doubles have taken over the auto market. Probably from threat of lawsuits, I figure.

Regards,
CATO

207 Posted on 03/04/2000 20:05:41 PST by Cato
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To: Red Redwine

Your comment about the accuracy of the AR-15 in comparison to the AKS-47 is accurate. The AK-47 has a 5 inch MOA. Not that great. The SKS has 3-3 1/2″ MOA. The AR-15 has about 3″ MOA. The AR-15 beats the AK in this respect, though not by enough to make a big difference, IMO. The reliability of the AK makes up for this slight bit of inaccuracy when compared with the AR-15. Also remember that these guns are for ranges of out to 150 yards. I know that the AR-15 is good out to 300 yards, but it really is a 150 yard gun. Remember that most people are not good with a gun out to 300 yards, especially us older folks. Damn eyes are not that good. There is an effective range for rifles and it is less than the maximum range in most cases.

The Germans during WWII found that most kills were made at closer ranges and they made the StuG44 with this fact in mind. They also made the rounds smaller so a person could carry more ammo. We made the M-16 with this info in mind. I really think the AR-15 is an excellent rifle, I just think that the AKS-47 is more suited for people who have less training or who are harder on their rifles. It needs less maintenance and it takes more punishment and keeps on firing. A lot of Special Forces carried them in the field because they were super reliable and because they could also get ammo from the enemy. With this last comment in mind, an AR-15 may be what you would prefer. But I think that ammo resupply will not be a problem with either rifle.

One final comment on the AK-47, it does not have a hold back when the last round is fired. This may be a problem, but if you make some tracer rounds or buy some, you can place a tracer about 2-3 rounds from the last and this will give you warning that you are about out of ammo.

Regards,
CATO

208 Posted on 03/04/2000 20:36:24 PST by Cato
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To: interpol

A good .30-06 is a very good choice. If you do reloading and have a rifle that is sturdy, you can load a .30-06 up to almost magnum performance specs. Another good thing about 30.06 is that Black Tip ammo is available and is not illegal.

CATO

209 Posted on 03/04/2000 20:47:34 PST by Cato
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To: D. Miles

LOL!

210 Posted on 03/04/2000 21:16:16 PST by Lurker
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To: Cato

I did a CMP shoot last month and to my suprise, they handed out Korean War vintage 30.06 black tip ammo shipped direct from the U.S. arsenal.

I was shooting my M1A, but had paid my fee for the Garand and the ammo just to participate.

I asked them (half joking) if I could have the ammo just for the heck of it. The rangemaster handed me 60 rounds of Mil-Spec black tip right out of the box. “Have fun” was all he said.

I am going back next month for more.

Regards,

211 Posted on 07/05/2000 00:08:19 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Bravo! Go back and get some more. You can never have too much AP ammo. BTW, I have a friend who ordered some literature on body armor. Guess what? They now have available to the police at this time a chest protector that is about 11 inches square that will defeat black tip 30.06 ammo. Not sure about the range that this protection is good at, it could possibly be defeated at close ranges. Just thought everyone should know that center mass shoots with black tip 30.06 can be defeated if the perp is wearing one of these chest protectors. So what is a person to do? Aim low. A groin shot or even a thigh shoot would incapacitate. I also found that the clear face shields are resistant to all pistol ammo. High shoulder or neck shots may be a solution to this. A wounded soldier takes at least two other men out of the line, unless they leave them. These are socialist cretins so their humanity is to be suspect and caring for their wounded, IMO, is second to their own survival and/or mission.

For informational purposes only,
CATO

212 Posted on 07/05/2000 17:06:03 PDT by Cato
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To: Cato

One round through the major muscle group on the inside of the upper thigh should do major damage to the femoral artery if one is lucky.

I am not a big believer in Luck, but I plan to aim for the “soft” targets anyway.

Interestingly enough, a stiff blow to the same area can result in almost instant unconsciousness do to a rapid change in blood pressure. I saw this happen to a friend of mine who walked into a table. The ER doctor said this happens because the blood vessels constrict after an impact injury and a large volume of blood is denied to the brain temporarily.

Regards,

213 Posted on 07/05/2000 22:04:55 PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker

Great post. Someone sent me the link. I am planning on buying my first gun ever, for home protection. I have had many folks say go with a shotgun. I was wondering if you could refer me to a web site, book or training where I might learn not so much how to shoot ( I can get lessons on that), but more the strategic side of things. Where do I keep the gun? How to see that it is available in the event of a B&E, etc. Any help is greatly appreciated. Regards,

214 Posted on 08/22/2000 22:05:54 PDT by Huck
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